about the mystery chemical in the engine !!

wowowox · 10-01-2004, 02:51 AM

today i went to the honda dealer for a service, and i found out about the special chemical thing in the engine oil for new cars.

and i also got a copy of the piece of information tooo ... !

here is wut it says

"FACTORY FILL OIL: because the piston rings, connecting rod bearings, camshaft, bearings and crankshaft main bearings continue to "break in" during the first 8000-12000 km, it is important to leave the factory-fill oil in the engine until the first oil change interval at 6000km or 6 month. the factory fill oil contains a special additive package to provide additional protection for the engine's internal moving parts during break-in"

well this is wut the dealer gave me i am just saying what i got from the dealer .. so if is not true plz don't balme me!

DavidHutchesonJr · 10-01-2004, 07:39 PM

That is about the same thing my dealer in Kentucky told me. I have a friend who is a chemist that works for one of the major oil companies. As you know, the oil companies want you to change your oil more often. I may have made a cardinal sin, but I changed my oil at 2,900 miles for the first time. I replaced the factory oil with 10W-30 Mobile 1 synthetic. The original factory oil had been in the car since July 2003. My car is not driven much. It is a 2003. The car now has barely 3,000 miles on it. The original oil was in the car of about 15 months. I feel I made the right choice changing it. Any thoughts on what I did?

wowowox · 10-02-2004, 04:33 AM

I beleive you made the right choice because it is possible that the same oil in the engine for too long can gone bad. so i guess you did a right choice, but i was told that from the dealer saying that from 6000km - 12000 km don't use synthetic oil becuase during the time the engine is still smoothing out, so what they suggest is for break period use regular 10w30 instead of synthetic oil after that u an use synthetic oil.

oilman · 10-05-2004, 03:31 AM

This is not unusual, it's like the old addage of "run it in on mineral oil".

Engines bed in much slower on synthetics that is why it's normally recommended to run in on mineral oils or semi-synthetics which are "hydrocracked" petroleum products. These oils are merely modified petroleum oils not true synthetics which are not petroleum related, they are made in laboratories by chemists and are normally PAO (poly alpha olefins) or ESTERS (Diester or Polyolester).

This explains a bit about the differences but bear in mind that the "hydrocracked" oils are legally labelled as synthetic although they are not in the true sense of the word as they are petroleum derived. This came about due to the court case in the states (Mobil vs Castrol) where it was considered that they were modified and therefore could be called synthetic. It was the oil companies marketing departments dream as they were able to produce low cost oils and label them as synthetics. Sad but true as they are an inferior product!

“HYDROCRACKED” (HC) or MOLECULARLY CONVERTED (MC) BASESTOCKS

There are many petroleum oils available on the market that are so pure and refined, they can now be passed off as synthetics.

They are not made from true synthetic basestocks (at least not in the way that synthetics have traditionally been defined), but they have so little in common with traditional petroleum basestocks, it is really somewhat silly to classify them as petroleum oils.

Petroleum oil basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called “hydrocracking”. In some cases, as in the case of one particular name-brand "synthetic" oil, these highly refined petroleum basestocks can actually be termed and sold as "synthetic".

It is completely legal for lubricants manufacturers to label these oils as "synthetic".

These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, but they are not truly synthetic the way that most people understand the term and will not necessarily perform to the same level as a premium synthetic oil like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters.

Hydrocracking involves changing the actual structure of many of the oil basestock molecules by breaking and fragmenting different molecular structures into far more stable ones. This results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to a typical petroleum basestock.

Although contaminants are still present, and these are still petroleum basestocks, contamination is minimal and performance characteristics are high. This process also can turn a wider range of crude oil stock into well-performing petroleum lubricant basestocks.

TYPES OF SYNTHETIC BASESTOCKS

Synthetic basestocks are not all the same. There are few different chemical types that may be used as synthetic basestock fluids. There are only three that are seen commonly in automotive applications:

Polyalphaolefins (PAO's)

These are the most common synthetic basestocks used in the US and in Europe. In fact, many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. PAO's are also called synthesized hydrocarbons and contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous. Viscosity indexes for nearly all PAO's are around 150, and they have extremely low pour points (normally below –40 degrees F). Although PAO's are also very thermally stable, there are a couple of drawbacks to using PAO basestocks.

One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics. But, when properly additized, oxidative stability can be achieved.

Diesters

These synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Therefore, their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's do. Nevertheless, if chosen carefully, diesters generally provide better pour points than PAO's (about -60 to -80 degrees F) and are a little more oxidatively stable when properly additized.

Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants - even without the aid of detergency additives.

They do have one extra benefit though, they are surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces), PAO’s are not “polar”, they are “inert”.

Polyolesters

Similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. Greater range of pour points and viscosity indexes than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters with pour points as low as -90 degrees F and viscosity indexes as high as 160 (without VI additive improvers). They are also “polar”.

Other synthetic basestocks exist but are not nearly as widely used as those above - especially in automotive type applications. Most synthetics on the market will use a single PAO basestock combined with an adequate additive package to provide a medium quality synthetic lubricant.

However, PAO basestocks are not all the same. Their final lubricating characteristics depend on the chemical reactions used to create them.

Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks.

This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap.

Cheers
Simon

DavidHutchesonJr · 10-05-2004, 08:29 PM

Simon,

I appreciated the lesson in oils. In a nutshell, what do you use? Am I off base using 10W-30 Mobil One in my stock 2003 S-2000? Tell me what you recommend with your understanding of sythetics.

THANKS A MILLION!

oilman · 10-06-2004, 02:00 AM

10w-30 Mobil 1 is fine, it's one of the better synthetic oils available your side of the pond. I also believe that Redline is readily available there at a reasonable price as well. (It's very expensive here and there are alternatives that are as good for about 30-40% less!)

Here in the UK 10w-30 is not a common grade, European markets tend to be biased towards 10w-40, 5w-40 and 5w-30.

The market here is moving towards lower "w" rated oils, 0w and 5w which give better cold start protection. In the UK most newer cars tend to use these oils per the Manufacturers recommendations.

If they're available on your side, which I believe they are, look at Fuchs/Silkolene oils as these are top quality as well.

Cheers
Simon

10-01-2004, 02:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
wowowox Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 307	about the mystery chemical in the engine !! today i went to the honda dealer for a service, and i found out about the special chemical thing in the engine oil for new cars. and i also got a copy of the piece of information tooo ... ! here is wut it says "FACTORY FILL OIL: because the piston rings, connecting rod bearings, camshaft, bearings and crankshaft main bearings continue to "break in" during the first 8000-12000 km, it is important to leave the factory-fill oil in the engine until the first oil change interval at 6000km or 6 month. the factory fill oil contains a special additive package to provide additional protection for the engine's internal moving parts during break-in" well this is wut the dealer gave me i am just saying what i got from the dealer .. so if is not true plz don't balme me!

10-01-2004, 07:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
DavidHutchesonJr Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 47	Original Oil That is about the same thing my dealer in Kentucky told me. I have a friend who is a chemist that works for one of the major oil companies. As you know, the oil companies want you to change your oil more often. I may have made a cardinal sin, but I changed my oil at 2,900 miles for the first time. I replaced the factory oil with 10W-30 Mobile 1 synthetic. The original factory oil had been in the car since July 2003. My car is not driven much. It is a 2003. The car now has barely 3,000 miles on it. The original oil was in the car of about 15 months. I feel I made the right choice changing it. Any thoughts on what I did?

10-05-2004, 08:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
DavidHutchesonJr Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 47	Simon - Which Oil Then? Simon, I appreciated the lesson in oils. In a nutshell, what do you use? Am I off base using 10W-30 Mobil One in my stock 2003 S-2000? Tell me what you recommend with your understanding of sythetics. THANKS A MILLION!

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10-02-2004, 04:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
wowowox Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 307	I beleive you made the right choice because it is possible that the same oil in the engine for too long can gone bad. so i guess you did a right choice, but i was told that from the dealer saying that from 6000km - 12000 km don't use synthetic oil becuase during the time the engine is still smoothing out, so what they suggest is for break period use regular 10w30 instead of synthetic oil after that u an use synthetic oil.

10-05-2004, 03:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
oilman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5	This is not unusual, it's like the old addage of "run it in on mineral oil". Engines bed in much slower on synthetics that is why it's normally recommended to run in on mineral oils or semi-synthetics which are "hydrocracked" petroleum products. These oils are merely modified petroleum oils not true synthetics which are not petroleum related, they are made in laboratories by chemists and are normally PAO (poly alpha olefins) or ESTERS (Diester or Polyolester). This explains a bit about the differences but bear in mind that the "hydrocracked" oils are legally labelled as synthetic although they are not in the true sense of the word as they are petroleum derived. This came about due to the court case in the states (Mobil vs Castrol) where it was considered that they were modified and therefore could be called synthetic. It was the oil companies marketing departments dream as they were able to produce low cost oils and label them as synthetics. Sad but true as they are an inferior product! “HYDROCRACKED” (HC) or MOLECULARLY CONVERTED (MC) BASESTOCKS There are many petroleum oils available on the market that are so pure and refined, they can now be passed off as synthetics. They are not made from true synthetic basestocks (at least not in the way that synthetics have traditionally been defined), but they have so little in common with traditional petroleum basestocks, it is really somewhat silly to classify them as petroleum oils. Petroleum oil basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called “hydrocracking”. In some cases, as in the case of one particular name-brand "synthetic" oil, these highly refined petroleum basestocks can actually be termed and sold as "synthetic". It is completely legal for lubricants manufacturers to label these oils as "synthetic". These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, but they are not truly synthetic the way that most people understand the term and will not necessarily perform to the same level as a premium synthetic oil like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters. Hydrocracking involves changing the actual structure of many of the oil basestock molecules by breaking and fragmenting different molecular structures into far more stable ones. This results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to a typical petroleum basestock. Although contaminants are still present, and these are still petroleum basestocks, contamination is minimal and performance characteristics are high. This process also can turn a wider range of crude oil stock into well-performing petroleum lubricant basestocks. TYPES OF SYNTHETIC BASESTOCKS Synthetic basestocks are not all the same. There are few different chemical types that may be used as synthetic basestock fluids. There are only three that are seen commonly in automotive applications: Polyalphaolefins (PAO's) These are the most common synthetic basestocks used in the US and in Europe. In fact, many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. PAO's are also called synthesized hydrocarbons and contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous. Viscosity indexes for nearly all PAO's are around 150, and they have extremely low pour points (normally below –40 degrees F). Although PAO's are also very thermally stable, there are a couple of drawbacks to using PAO basestocks. One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics. But, when properly additized, oxidative stability can be achieved. Diesters These synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Therefore, their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's do. Nevertheless, if chosen carefully, diesters generally provide better pour points than PAO's (about -60 to -80 degrees F) and are a little more oxidatively stable when properly additized. Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants - even without the aid of detergency additives. They do have one extra benefit though, they are surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces), PAO’s are not “polar”, they are “inert”. Polyolesters Similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. Greater range of pour points and viscosity indexes than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters with pour points as low as -90 degrees F and viscosity indexes as high as 160 (without VI additive improvers). They are also “polar”. Other synthetic basestocks exist but are not nearly as widely used as those above - especially in automotive type applications. Most synthetics on the market will use a single PAO basestock combined with an adequate additive package to provide a medium quality synthetic lubricant. However, PAO basestocks are not all the same. Their final lubricating characteristics depend on the chemical reactions used to create them. Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks. This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap. Cheers Simon

10-06-2004, 02:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
oilman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5	10w-30 Mobil 1 is fine, it's one of the better synthetic oils available your side of the pond. I also believe that Redline is readily available there at a reasonable price as well. (It's very expensive here and there are alternatives that are as good for about 30-40% less!) Here in the UK 10w-30 is not a common grade, European markets tend to be biased towards 10w-40, 5w-40 and 5w-30. The market here is moving towards lower "w" rated oils, 0w and 5w which give better cold start protection. In the UK most newer cars tend to use these oils per the Manufacturers recommendations. If they're available on your side, which I believe they are, look at Fuchs/Silkolene oils as these are top quality as well. Cheers Simon