no gain = rice: right??

JOECHY · 07-07-2008, 10:49 AM

So I am interested in small gains and benifits to after market upgrades such as a CAI, lighter afterket wheels, and tighter suspension. I am by no means interested in a forced induction kit of any kind because I want to maintain the integrity of my ride as a daily driver. Can any one confirm any gain (even a little) from adding an aftermarket exhaust? There are so many folks with other vehicles that indicate no gain in HP with upgraded exhaust unless you have a turbo kit installed. To me sound is nothing without gain = rice..... do you agree?

desmo4 · 07-07-2008, 11:41 AM

My AP1 has got a big boost from the mods I have done both in acceleration and handling.

jagg · 07-07-2008, 03:16 PM

I agree Desmo, but for the average fellow, is it worth the money you spent? 10 grand for 40 horse in a car you can barely drive at the limit as it is, in stock form, seems like overkill.

It appears to me that any "upgrades" to an S2000, only make it a better 0-60 car,(marginally) and can't effectively improve it's handling at it's limits.....Who out there is really driving their Stewie at it's limits with any regularity? I try like Hell, on some of the most screwed up roads you'll have opportunity to travel, and I still don't feel like I've hit the barrier between engineering prowess, and driver skill level.

Come on , give me the goods. Who's the expert out there?

jagg

dezignpro04 · 07-07-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagg

Come on , give me the goods. Who's the expert out there?

jagg

This question has been asked many times. Going "Mugen" or "Spoon" is a waste of money if you are doing it for bang. They are bragging rights, much of which Desmo uses.

You yourself said you will not FI so as to risk daily driving. Well I am afraid to tell you that that is the only way to go with the platform to get any power worth writing home about. If you are so worried about daily driving then go and get a Super Charger. Yes it is still FI, but night and day difference when it comes to comparing it to a turbo. It will not risk your daily driving if you do it right and get a EMS and have it tuned. That is your best route. If you want some sound and some "butt dyno", get a nice exhaust (Invidia, HKS, etc) and an intake (AEM, Injen, ARC if you have cash) and stay there.

There is a fine line between tuning your car, and getting to that satisfied point. That point will only be reached by a route of FI if you are not already satisfied with the "S" in stock form. The F20C/F22C are very fine tuned, blueprinted motors Honda put a lot of F1 soul into. That said most of the motors potential has been squesed out, leaving room for the FI upgrade.

jagg · 07-07-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

There is a fine line between tuning your car, and getting to that satisfied point.

Sure Dez, but this is not an answer to my question.
Who's running Stewie hard? ......Anybody can drag a streetcar. Right foot down, 'n hang on. Who's out there driving?

jagg

desmo4 · 07-07-2008, 05:21 PM

Actually when the car had 5k miles on it and I lived in CA and it was unmodified. I got into a 4 wheel drift at 95 miles per hour on Skyline in Mountainview. Now with the Mugen suspension I have driven on similar roads at higher speeds and never came close to a drift. You people who think Mugen is just a status symbol are either misinformed or ignorant. And the other Mugen parts I have installed have improved the drivability immensely. The car is about 95% from the factory and most of the cheap after market parts do nothing but slow it down. As for forced induction, on an 11 to 1 compression is stupid. If you want FI, buy a car that was built from the ground up for it. Like a Porche or Renault.

Ps This a road racer not a dragster.

Jonathan

s2000isu · 07-07-2008, 05:50 PM

lol anyone who knows cars knows I dont need to say more than lol.

chazdawg35 · 07-07-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagg

Sure Dez, but this is not an answer to my question.
Who's running Stewie hard? ......Anybody can drag a streetcar. Right foot down, 'n hang on. Who's out there driving?

jagg

Hey Dude if you want to know about HARD and Good Driving ask Venza31! He has been showing me what Stewie really can do with simple but smart upgrades.

4406pack · 07-07-2008, 08:00 PM

i drive my stewie in as many autocrosses as i can, and i put her at her limits many times, and i have found that in her stock form i can hang with normal vettes all day, when i upgrade the suspension, it will only make her better, as for NA to FI, right now i run NA and i am only 3 to 4 seconds off the fastest vette in my class, this is also my first year racing, so as i get more experence on the track and with my car, we will get better... Mother Honda made the S2000 to race in the twisties, from the factory she handles great, with a few aftermarket parts she goes great to riding on rails...as you can see from my post of my races, she is a joy to drive and race....im not sure if this has answered any questions or not.....

ap1sleeper · 07-07-2008, 08:26 PM

Greddy E-Manage Ultimate. With no other mods (stock intake, headers, and exhaust) you can tune it to around 230-240 RWHP vs the stock 200-210. You can find them used all the time. However, if you have 06' I would stay away from it.

Stock intake with drop-in K&N filters has proven specs for more HP vs CAI or short ram K&N. Like stated before, Honda did a great job building the car and tuning. The only way you are going to see any HP gains worth mentioning is going to set you back a grand easy.

FI is also a quick way to have more power. 7 lbs SC will get you around 330's- RWHP, 10 lbs around 350-375 (I think those are accurate from KraftWerks). Local guy is running their 10 lbs kit and has just over 385 RWHP. The kraftwerks is prolly the most reliable kit out there and cheaper then Comptech.

As far as the exhaust...anytime you can get larger amounts of air OUT of the engine to make room for more going IN the engine you are going to have HP gains. However, you can not expect to bolt on an exhaust and see this without a better tune (hand in hand with the Greddy mentioned above).

I have heard from a reliable source that there is a company that manufactures intakes that utilize a coil systems inside that works with nitrous to super cool the air going into the engine (colder air means more compressed thus meaning more goes into the enigne at a given time). I know this company already has kits for other cars and run near a grand. However, I have not determined whether or not the intake for the S is in production or the testing stages yet. The system only cools for 40 seconds and purges. As I find more on this and maybe a release date (if there is one for the S) I will surely post it up. If anyone else has more info on this please let me know.

Most of you may know this and for those who dont you can do your own research. Driving the S hard is MUCH better for the car. The more miles you put on the car along with the more VTEC you use the engine is naturally going to create more power on a Dyno. So drive the syt of it!!! lol

TheCarGuy2021 · 07-07-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desmo4

As for forced induction, on an 11 to 1 compression is stupid. If you want FI, buy a car that was built from the ground up for it. Like a Porche or Renault.

I disagree.

TheCarGuy2021 · 07-07-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap1sleeper

I have heard from a reliable source that there is a company that manufactures intakes that utilize a coil systems inside that works with nitrous to super cool the air going into the engine (colder air means more compressed thus meaning more goes into the enigne at a given time). I know this company already has kits for other cars and run near a grand. However, I have not determined whether or not the intake for the S is in production or the testing stages yet. The system only cools for 40 seconds and purges. As I find more on this and maybe a release date (if there is one for the S) I will surely post it up. If anyone else has more info on this please let me know.

DEI has been doing something similar for quite some time now with their CryO2 system, except it uses carbon dioxide.
http://www.designengineering.com/pro...asp?m=sc&cid=1

ap1sleeper · 07-07-2008, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCarGuy2021

DEI has been doing something similar for quite some time now with their CryO2 system, except it uses carbon dioxide.
http://www.designengineering.com/pro...asp?m=sc&cid=1

I have seen this one before, but not paid too much attention to unfortunatley. I wonder how (in comparison) the nitrous system will be (even they even start to market it)? I really need to find more info on this other one.

So that site has me a bit confused....hypothetically speaking...if I wanted to get on there and order one tonight, what actually would I be ordering. It looks like they dont have a "complete kit" just al' carte' style ordering...??

bulldozer73 · 07-07-2008, 09:48 PM

That really depends on the intake flow and exhaust flow you create for the shit your doing.I have all stock internals all nat asp mtr .Did much bigger out flow and much more throat to suck in air more spark more fule more air .I f up turbos all the time maybe these people are just chicken to go as fast. Thats why I dont have turbo . Hvent needed it yet .

gomarlins3 · 07-07-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCarGuy2021

I disagree.

I agree with your disagree.

As for mods that REALLY help the car, I am not sure I have found any. I have lots of mods, but I did them because I wanted to. My car isn't flashy and has won some awards, but it's my toy and I have fun with it. That's all I am trying to do.

Vezna31 · 07-07-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chazdawg35

Hey Dude if you want to know about HARD and Good Driving ask Venza31! He has been showing me what Stewie really can do with simple but smart upgrades.

Thanks for the kudos, but I am far from pushing the car to its limits. There are drivers that can get far greater results out of the S than me. I don't know if I would consider myself an advanced driver as far as track day groups, maybe high intermediate to low advanced.

philiam · 07-07-2008, 10:41 PM

"Driving the S hard is MUCH better for the car. The more miles you put on the car along with the more VTEC you use the engine is naturally going to create more power on a Dyno. So drive the syt of it!!! lo"

Can someone explain the logic of that to me? The car is made to stand up to hard driving, but I don't know why flogging the spit out of it would be beneficial, other than possibly blowing the carbon out .

Vezna31 · 07-07-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philiam

"Driving the S hard is MUCH better for the car. The more miles you put on the car along with the more VTEC you use the engine is naturally going to create more power on a Dyno. So drive the syt of it!!! lo"

Can someone explain the logic of that to me? The car is made to stand up to hard driving, but I don't know why flogging the spit out of it would be beneficial, other than possibly blowing the carbon out .

My gas mileage is off the charts after a track day. Blowing out the carbon is probably the only positive thing going on. Other than that, you are surely bringing on maintenance in a MUCH faster pace...wearing out wheel bearings, rotors, brakes, clutch, tranny, fluids, TIRES, etc. I now swap out all my fluids 2 or 3 times per year vs. every 20k miles or whatever the book says.

ap1sleeper · 07-08-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap1sleeper

Most of you may know this and for those who dont you can do your own research. Driving the S hard is MUCH better for the car. The more miles you put on the car along with the more VTEC you use the engine is naturally going to create more power on a Dyno. So drive the syt of it!!! lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by philiam

"Driving the S hard is MUCH better for the car. The more miles you put on the car along with the more VTEC you use the engine is naturally going to create more power on a Dyno. So drive the syt of it!!! lo"

Can someone explain the logic of that to me? The car is made to stand up to hard driving, but I don't know why flogging the spit out of it would be beneficial, other than possibly blowing the carbon out .

lol, had to quote this...sorry.

By no means if I referring to the track or AutoX. Use Vtec often and put the miles on it. Do the research and you will find the same results. I shift at 8500 rpms EVERY 1st, 2nd, and usually 3rd. Again, putting the car under the stress of the track is not what I was referring too, but it does like it.

philiam · 07-08-2008, 04:45 PM

Do the research and you will find the same results.

Where can I find this research? It's not in the owners manual. I can check with my brother at american Honda, but he's never mentioned it and he's quite familiar with the S2000.

Pablo · 07-08-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philiam

Do the research and you will find the same results.

Where can I find this research? It's not in the owners manual. I can check with my brother at american Honda, but he's never mentioned it and he's quite familiar with the S2000.

Phil, with all you years around vehicles, you never read the research PROVING that going to red line with every shift, every time is good for the vehicle? Come on Phil, whee ya been?

philiam · 07-08-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo

Phil, with all you years around vehicles, you never read the research PROVING that going to red line with every shift, every time is good for the vehicle? Come on Phil, whee ya been?

Always willen to learn. I read about a carburetor that will give you 200 mpg that was bought out by Detroit and hidden away. So, you never know.

lonestarbuzz · 07-08-2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philiam

Always willen to learn. I read about a carburetor that will give you 200 mpg that was bought out by Detroit and hidden away. So, you never know.

that was a story on 20 20 once... i think a year or so ago.

Bigpappaholt · 07-08-2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldozer73

That really depends on the intake flow and exhaust flow you create for the shit your doing.I have all stock internals all nat asp mtr .Did much bigger out flow and much more throat to suck in air more spark more fule more air .I f up turbos all the time maybe these people are just chicken to go as fast. Thats why I dont have turbo . Hvent needed it yet .

i would like to see this. if u beat my turbo then id sell my kit and switch to what ever you got. your in dallas area right?

07-07-2008, 10:49 AM	#1 (permalink)
JOECHY Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 146	no gain = rice: right?? So I am interested in small gains and benifits to after market upgrades such as a CAI, lighter afterket wheels, and tighter suspension. I am by no means interested in a forced induction kit of any kind because I want to maintain the integrity of my ride as a daily driver. Can any one confirm any gain (even a little) from adding an aftermarket exhaust? There are so many folks with other vehicles that indicate no gain in HP with upgraded exhaust unless you have a turbo kit installed. To me sound is nothing without gain = rice..... do you agree?

07-07-2008, 11:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
desmo4 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 495	My AP1 has got a big boost from the mods I have done both in acceleration and handling. __________________ MY 2000 Mugen Air box, Headers, Exhaust, ECU, Pressure Plate,LSD, Radiator cap NZ Dampers, Thermo SW and Thermostat. 66 mm Throttle body, Sampco intake pipe and radiator hoses, Swift sway bars, Stillen rotors w/ M-tech extreme pads. BBS JDM Forged Wheels.w/ Potensa Re=01R's Nextgear Intake manifold gasket, SPA gauges, Alpine IDA-X001,KCE-300Bt BT Adapter, Focal 165 K2P speakers, Boston 10.5LF Subwoofer, Phoenix Gold ZX475Ti & Xenon X600.1 Sub Amp, Recaro Profi SPG w/Sparco 6 pt

07-07-2008, 05:21 PM	#6 (permalink)
desmo4 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 495	Actually when the car had 5k miles on it and I lived in CA and it was unmodified. I got into a 4 wheel drift at 95 miles per hour on Skyline in Mountainview. Now with the Mugen suspension I have driven on similar roads at higher speeds and never came close to a drift. You people who think Mugen is just a status symbol are either misinformed or ignorant. And the other Mugen parts I have installed have improved the drivability immensely. The car is about 95% from the factory and most of the cheap after market parts do nothing but slow it down. As for forced induction, on an 11 to 1 compression is stupid. If you want FI, buy a car that was built from the ground up for it. Like a Porche or Renault. Ps This a road racer not a dragster. Jonathan __________________ MY 2000 Mugen Air box, Headers, Exhaust, ECU, Pressure Plate,LSD, Radiator cap NZ Dampers, Thermo SW and Thermostat. 66 mm Throttle body, Sampco intake pipe and radiator hoses, Swift sway bars, Stillen rotors w/ M-tech extreme pads. BBS JDM Forged Wheels.w/ Potensa Re=01R's Nextgear Intake manifold gasket, SPA gauges, Alpine IDA-X001,KCE-300Bt BT Adapter, Focal 165 K2P speakers, Boston 10.5LF Subwoofer, Phoenix Gold ZX475Ti & Xenon X600.1 Sub Amp, Recaro Profi SPG w/Sparco 6 pt Last edited by desmo4 : 07-07-2008 at 05:24 PM.

07-07-2008, 05:50 PM	#7 (permalink)
s2000isu Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: pa Posts: 1,110	lol anyone who knows cars knows I dont need to say more than lol. __________________ S2kx2: "paint it pink! Or better yet buy a Miata" 2001 Vortech SC 12.8 at 111 miles per hour

07-07-2008, 08:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
ap1sleeper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 137	Greddy E-Manage Ultimate. With no other mods (stock intake, headers, and exhaust) you can tune it to around 230-240 RWHP vs the stock 200-210. You can find them used all the time. However, if you have 06' I would stay away from it. Stock intake with drop-in K&N filters has proven specs for more HP vs CAI or short ram K&N. Like stated before, Honda did a great job building the car and tuning. The only way you are going to see any HP gains worth mentioning is going to set you back a grand easy. FI is also a quick way to have more power. 7 lbs SC will get you around 330's- RWHP, 10 lbs around 350-375 (I think those are accurate from KraftWerks). Local guy is running their 10 lbs kit and has just over 385 RWHP. The kraftwerks is prolly the most reliable kit out there and cheaper then Comptech. As far as the exhaust...anytime you can get larger amounts of air OUT of the engine to make room for more going IN the engine you are going to have HP gains. However, you can not expect to bolt on an exhaust and see this without a better tune (hand in hand with the Greddy mentioned above). I have heard from a reliable source that there is a company that manufactures intakes that utilize a coil systems inside that works with nitrous to super cool the air going into the engine (colder air means more compressed thus meaning more goes into the enigne at a given time). I know this company already has kits for other cars and run near a grand. However, I have not determined whether or not the intake for the S is in production or the testing stages yet. The system only cools for 40 seconds and purges. As I find more on this and maybe a release date (if there is one for the S) I will surely post it up. If anyone else has more info on this please let me know. Most of you may know this and for those who dont you can do your own research. Driving the S hard is MUCH better for the car. The more miles you put on the car along with the more VTEC you use the engine is naturally going to create more power on a Dyno. So drive the syt of it!!! lol Last edited by ap1sleeper : 07-07-2008 at 08:51 PM.

07-07-2008, 03:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
jagg Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Endless Mountains Posts: 2,380	I agree Desmo, but for the average fellow, is it worth the money you spent? 10 grand for 40 horse in a car you can barely drive at the limit as it is, in stock form, seems like overkill. It appears to me that any "upgrades" to an S2000, only make it a better 0-60 car,(marginally) and can't effectively improve it's handling at it's limits.....Who out there is really driving their Stewie at it's limits with any regularity? I try like Hell, on some of the most screwed up roads you'll have opportunity to travel, and I still don't feel like I've hit the barrier between engineering prowess, and driver skill level. Come on , give me the goods. Who's the expert out there? jagg

07-07-2008, 08:00 PM	#9 (permalink)
4406pack cone destroyer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: champaign, IL Posts: 326	i drive my stewie in as many autocrosses as i can, and i put her at her limits many times, and i have found that in her stock form i can hang with normal vettes all day, when i upgrade the suspension, it will only make her better, as for NA to FI, right now i run NA and i am only 3 to 4 seconds off the fastest vette in my class, this is also my first year racing, so as i get more experence on the track and with my car, we will get better... Mother Honda made the S2000 to race in the twisties, from the factory she handles great, with a few aftermarket parts she goes great to riding on rails...as you can see from my post of my races, she is a joy to drive and race....im not sure if this has answered any questions or not.....

07-07-2008, 09:48 PM	#14 (permalink)
bulldozer73 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26	That really depends on the intake flow and exhaust flow you create for the shit your doing.I have all stock internals all nat asp mtr .Did much bigger out flow and much more throat to suck in air more spark more fule more air .I f up turbos all the time maybe these people are just chicken to go as fast. Thats why I dont have turbo . Hvent needed it yet .

07-07-2008, 10:41 PM	#17 (permalink)
philiam Senior Member, Literally Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: woodland hills, CA Posts: 1,427	"Driving the S hard is MUCH better for the car. The more miles you put on the car along with the more VTEC you use the engine is naturally going to create more power on a Dyno. So drive the syt of it!!! lo" Can someone explain the logic of that to me? The car is made to stand up to hard driving, but I don't know why flogging the spit out of it would be beneficial, other than possibly blowing the carbon out . __________________

07-08-2008, 04:45 PM	#20 (permalink)
philiam Senior Member, Literally Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: woodland hills, CA Posts: 1,427	Do the research and you will find the same results. Where can I find this research? It's not in the owners manual. I can check with my brother at american Honda, but he's never mentioned it and he's quite familiar with the S2000. __________________