Over revved due to miss shift 3rd to 2nd Need Advice

P.O.L.A.R · 08-11-2008, 09:11 AM

Miss shifted my 2002 f20c from 3rd to 2nd. I was at about 8500 rpms in third when misshifted. It ran fine back to my friends house no power loss no leaks nothing at all. When I went to leave that nigtit did not start. I sent it to the dodge dealership I bought it from and they sent it to thehond dealership. Dodge is claiming I bent all 16 valves and warped all 4 pistonheads. I called honda and they told me they are ordering 1 head and if that is the case then the only valves that should be bent are the 4 around the 1 warped head. I am going to honda sometime tomorrow to see if the head is truly warped.

I was wondering a few things shouldn't the car have shut off immediately after over revving due to some sort of fuel shut off and would over revvingcause all the problems dodge/ honda is claiming?

TheCarGuy2021 · 08-11-2008, 09:19 AM

For starters, don't take your car to a Dodge dealership, even if you did buy it there. Also, our engine only has 1 head, not 4. Bending ALL 16 valves is pretty unlikely, but you were at 8500 RPM when you mis shifted.

Our head looks like this:

And yes, mis shifting and over revving at the rpm you did could destroy this engine.

killabee · 08-11-2008, 09:31 AM

so let me get this right you were in 3rd at 8500 rmp and tryed to down shift to second?

Swingle1 · 08-11-2008, 09:36 AM

Ouch. Best of luck POLAR. At the point you over revved, it wouldn't matter if there were a fuel shut-off. It's still a mechanical issue of stuff flying around WAY too fast, whether the pistons were actually firing or not.
Best advice is to see for yourself. They'll likely do a compression check first, then tear it down if it turns out the way it might. If they do tear it down, have them show you what's going on to all of the parts that they propose replacing. Over revving can be BAD... but we're all just speculating on what actually happened.

Ouch. Best of luck, POLAR.

P.O.L.A.R · 08-11-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killabee

so let me get this right you were in 3rd at 8500 rmp and tryed to down shift to second?

No I miss 4th and fell in scond.

Java Junky · 08-11-2008, 10:00 AM

'Ain't seein' any mention'a rev-limiter.
Anybody seein' any mention'a the standard-issue rev-limiter?

bbcricketta · 08-11-2008, 10:19 AM

the rev-limiter will keep you from over-revving on the way up, but if you mis-shift to a lower gear there is nothing the computer can do to prevent the imminent grenade explosion--even if you cut off the fuel the engine would still spin if the clutch was engaged. ka-boom!!! but, jj, you know all that.

Swingle1 · 08-11-2008, 10:20 AM

Java, I was thinking a rev limter only applies when you give accelerate up to redline. That's when the throttle should cut out. How would that make a difference on a down shift from 8500?

J'sS2K · 08-11-2008, 11:21 AM

What did you do immediately after the mis-shift? The only thing you should do is to disengage the clutch ASAP.

Yes, a mechanical over-rev could cause all of your engine problems that Dodge and Honda are claiming.

P.O.L.A.R · 08-11-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J'sS2K

What did you do immediately after the mis-shift? The only thing you should do is to disengage the clutch ASAP.

Yes, a mechanical over-rev could cause all of your engine problems that Dodge and Honda are claiming.

I pulled it out asap but it was too late obviously.

P.O.L.A.R · 08-11-2008, 11:39 AM

Well I went to honda and checked it out I bent 5 valves and the head (not piston heads) is shot. I "warped" a section of the head. To remachine is costly and for a little more a new head is the better option. All in all I a going to pay roughly 5300. Should have taken it to a local mechanic my loss thinking the warranty would cover it oh well.

Gilgothdae · 08-11-2008, 01:21 PM

Ouch, that sucks, good luck with the re-build, maybe use this as an opportunity to put in some upgrades? Either way best of luck!

Java Junky · 08-11-2008, 01:33 PM

Yeah, but whut happenz when half-cocked'z all yuh got?
Sorry guyz, my speed-readin' ain't whudd'itt use'ta be.

Neil · 08-11-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.O.L.A.R

Well I went to honda and checked it out I bent 5 valves and the head (not piston heads) is shot. I "warped" a section of the head. To remachine is costly and for a little more a new head is the better option. All in all I a going to pay roughly 5300. Should have taken it to a local mechanic my loss thinking the warranty would cover it oh well.

Thats a lot of cash for a miss shift. Maybe a second appriasel might not be a bad idea. Unless you've got a lot of cash that is.............good luck tho....

Neil

Swingle1 · 08-11-2008, 02:13 PM

Sorry to hear. I know it's no consolation, but it could've been a lot worse. when you anti-nausea medication has kicked in, check this link out:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2351236&page=1

Scroll down a bit to see some true ugliness.

'N' Java, thatz de funniest re-tracshun I e'er had 'casion ta speed-read.

DJJSR · 08-11-2008, 02:26 PM

The way I figure it, the damage could have been MUCH worse. Third gear is a 1.481:1 ratio. Second gear is 2.045:1 ratio. That would mean an engine speed increase of 38%. 8500 RPMs x 1.38 = 11730 RPMs. That zingin her!

You may not think so, but you're lucky. You could have easily damaged the pistons as well.

doc0943 · 08-11-2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Java Junky

'Ain't seein' any mention'a rev-limiter.
Anybody seein' any mention'a the standard-issue rev-limiter?

Unfortunately this is a mechanical over rev and a rev limiter would not have prevented the over rev.

s2000isu · 08-11-2008, 02:48 PM

How did the head get warped from this?

Gilgothdae · 08-11-2008, 02:48 PM

holy crap, I hope never to see carnage like that link in my life, that was bad.

and thankd God that it wasn't that bad on this F-Engine!

Swingle1 · 08-11-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilgothdae

holy crap, I hope never to see carnage like that link in my life, that was bad.

and thankd God that it wasn't that bad on this F-Engine!

I know. I can only assume it wasn't the owner taking those pics... I know I'd have to be heavily sedated to hold the camera steady.

TheCarGuy2021 · 08-11-2008, 04:05 PM

Did they already take off the head? If your valves are bent, it sounds like you had some valve float and they were smacking the pistons. As stated above, your pistons may be damaged as well.

Vezna31 · 08-11-2008, 04:19 PM

I did the same exact thing on the race track a year ago. I was accelerating in 3rd and decided to shift a little early and go through the esses in 4th. When I shifted, I accidentally hit 2nd, but I caught it as I felt the car beginning to lurch from the downshift. I pushed the clutch in as soon as I felt it. A year and 4 months later and it's still as strong as ever.

I think you need to get a second opinion on the cost of machining the head. I had mine done when I got a new engine 60k miles ago from an oil starvation problem and they only charged me $380 to do it.

H20 · 08-11-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.O.L.A.R

Miss shifted my 2002 f20c from 3rd to 2nd. I was at about 8500 rpms in third when misshifted. It ran fine back to my friends house no power loss no leaks nothing at all.

Sounds like a classic S2000 over rev. Valves float, Keepers rattle and crack, valves drop down the road a ways.
Ya can't do that.
IF you had shut it down and pulled the valve cover you MAY have seen the valves sitting lower in the springs PREPRATORY to actually letting go and contacting the pistons. Thats the usual MO for mechanical over revs.
It's also a ginormous IF. I would say most users would not do these things.
I would have towed the thing home and checked them. But I know about this scenario because I have read all there is to read on these cars on every interweb forum there is. And you are NOT the first person to do this. Not by a long shot.
I have also caught myself doing the same thing before an actual over rev. That damn centering spring in the shifter almost got me a couple of times early on.
Anyway, I know the horse is already out of the barn, but maybe this might help the next guy. And there will be a next guy soon enough.
Sorry for your troubles and I hope she's fixed up soon.

jagg · 08-12-2008, 06:52 AM

Quote:

How did the head get warped from this?

I'm wondering the same thing.

jagg

dezignpro04 · 08-12-2008, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagg

I'm wondering the same thing.

jagg

Maybe they were referring to the driver...

jagg · 08-12-2008, 06:58 AM

Bad Dez, Bad!!! Now you have to go on "time out" for 5 minutes.....

dezignpro04 · 08-12-2008, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagg

Bad Dez, Bad!!! Now you have to go on "time out" for 5 minutes.....

awwwwwwwww mannnnnnn........

Swingle1 · 08-12-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dezignpro04

Maybe they were referring to the driver...

Oh... dude. That's cold. I'm smilin'... but I ain't feelin good about it! Dude... that's cold!

08-11-2008, 09:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
P.O.L.A.R Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 4	Over revved due to miss shift 3rd to 2nd Need Advice Miss shifted my 2002 f20c from 3rd to 2nd. I was at about 8500 rpms in third when misshifted. It ran fine back to my friends house no power loss no leaks nothing at all. When I went to leave that nigtit did not start. I sent it to the dodge dealership I bought it from and they sent it to thehond dealership. Dodge is claiming I bent all 16 valves and warped all 4 pistonheads. I called honda and they told me they are ordering 1 head and if that is the case then the only valves that should be bent are the 4 around the 1 warped head. I am going to honda sometime tomorrow to see if the head is truly warped. I was wondering a few things shouldn't the car have shut off immediately after over revving due to some sort of fuel shut off and would over revvingcause all the problems dodge/ honda is claiming? Last edited by P.O.L.A.R : 08-11-2008 at 09:13 AM.

08-11-2008, 09:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
TheCarGuy2021 Turbo guy Join Date: May 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 277	For starters, don't take your car to a Dodge dealership, even if you did buy it there. Also, our engine only has 1 head, not 4. Bending ALL 16 valves is pretty unlikely, but you were at 8500 RPM when you mis shifted. Our head looks like this: And yes, mis shifting and over revving at the rpm you did could destroy this engine. __________________

08-11-2008, 10:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
Java Junky Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Joisey Posts: 5,432	'Ain't seein' any mention'a rev-limiter. Anybody seein' any mention'a the standard-issue rev-limiter? __________________ In life-long pursuit of that most mythic of beasts: the ever-elusive perfect corner. Well . . . that, r' at least a whole lodda clear spin-out room.

08-11-2008, 10:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
bbcricketta normal aspiration Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: south georgia Posts: 710	the rev-limiter will keep you from over-revving on the way up, but if you mis-shift to a lower gear there is nothing the computer can do to prevent the imminent grenade explosion--even if you cut off the fuel the engine would still spin if the clutch was engaged. ka-boom!!! but, jj, you know all that. __________________ 2007 berlina black

08-11-2008, 11:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
J'sS2K The Car Camera Mount Guy Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 824	What did you do immediately after the mis-shift? The only thing you should do is to disengage the clutch ASAP. Yes, a mechanical over-rev could cause all of your engine problems that Dodge and Honda are claiming. __________________ So you're heading to the track and you want to record your sessions. PM me for an in-car camera mount For everything else, you are on your own! Last edited by J'sS2K : 08-11-2008 at 11:24 AM.

08-11-2008, 09:31 AM	#3 (permalink)
killabee Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 292	so let me get this right you were in 3rd at 8500 rmp and tryed to down shift to second?

08-11-2008, 09:36 AM	#4 (permalink)
Swingle1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 280	Ouch. Best of luck POLAR. At the point you over revved, it wouldn't matter if there were a fuel shut-off. It's still a mechanical issue of stuff flying around WAY too fast, whether the pistons were actually firing or not. Best advice is to see for yourself. They'll likely do a compression check first, then tear it down if it turns out the way it might. If they do tear it down, have them show you what's going on to all of the parts that they propose replacing. Over revving can be BAD... but we're all just speculating on what actually happened. Ouch. Best of luck, POLAR.

08-11-2008, 10:20 AM	#8 (permalink)
Swingle1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 280	Java, I was thinking a rev limter only applies when you give accelerate up to redline. That's when the throttle should cut out. How would that make a difference on a down shift from 8500?

08-11-2008, 11:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
P.O.L.A.R Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 4	Well I went to honda and checked it out I bent 5 valves and the head (not piston heads) is shot. I "warped" a section of the head. To remachine is costly and for a little more a new head is the better option. All in all I a going to pay roughly 5300. Should have taken it to a local mechanic my loss thinking the warranty would cover it oh well.

08-11-2008, 01:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
Gilgothdae Better, Faster, Stronger Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 108	Ouch, that sucks, good luck with the re-build, maybe use this as an opportunity to put in some upgrades? Either way best of luck!

08-11-2008, 01:33 PM	#13 (permalink)
Java Junky Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Joisey Posts: 5,432	Yeah, but whut happenz when half-cocked'z all yuh got? Sorry guyz, my speed-readin' ain't whudd'itt use'ta be. __________________ In life-long pursuit of that most mythic of beasts: the ever-elusive perfect corner. Well . . . that, r' at least a whole lodda clear spin-out room.

08-11-2008, 02:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
Swingle1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 280	Sorry to hear. I know it's no consolation, but it could've been a lot worse. when you anti-nausea medication has kicked in, check this link out: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2351236&page=1 Scroll down a bit to see some true ugliness. 'N' Java, thatz de funniest re-tracshun I e'er had 'casion ta speed-read.

08-11-2008, 02:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
DJJSR Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Hooterville Posts: 1,751	The way I figure it, the damage could have been MUCH worse. Third gear is a 1.481:1 ratio. Second gear is 2.045:1 ratio. That would mean an engine speed increase of 38%. 8500 RPMs x 1.38 = 11730 RPMs. That zingin her! You may not think so, but you're lucky. You could have easily damaged the pistons as well. __________________ Don

08-11-2008, 02:48 PM	#18 (permalink)
s2000isu Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: pa Posts: 1,172	How did the head get warped from this? __________________ S2kx2: "paint it pink! Or better yet buy a Miata" 2001 Vortech SC 12.8 at 111 miles per hour

08-11-2008, 02:48 PM	#19 (permalink)
Gilgothdae Better, Faster, Stronger Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 108	holy crap, I hope never to see carnage like that link in my life, that was bad. and thankd God that it wasn't that bad on this F-Engine!

08-11-2008, 04:05 PM	#21 (permalink)
TheCarGuy2021 Turbo guy Join Date: May 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 277	Did they already take off the head? If your valves are bent, it sounds like you had some valve float and they were smacking the pistons. As stated above, your pistons may be damaged as well. __________________

08-11-2008, 04:19 PM	#22 (permalink)
Vezna31 Resident Track Whore :) Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Chula Vista, CA Posts: 1,285	I did the same exact thing on the race track a year ago. I was accelerating in 3rd and decided to shift a little early and go through the esses in 4th. When I shifted, I accidentally hit 2nd, but I caught it as I felt the car beginning to lurch from the downshift. I pushed the clutch in as soon as I felt it. A year and 4 months later and it's still as strong as ever. I think you need to get a second opinion on the cost of machining the head. I had mine done when I got a new engine 60k miles ago from an oil starvation problem and they only charged me $380 to do it. __________________ Vezna Financial Services - For mortgages, accounting and taxes, and phone service needs. http://www.vezna.com San Diego Car Club - http://www.sdcarclub.com

08-12-2008, 06:58 AM	#26 (permalink)
jagg Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Endless Mountains Posts: 2,520	Bad Dez, Bad!!! Now you have to go on "time out" for 5 minutes.....