Why they don't make S2000s anymore

[jv1]

Just got my S2000 last week. It's a 2007 with 40k miles--$21k. I love it so far. It just makes me smile to think about it. But one thing has bugged me about the S2000. Why did they quit making them. I drove all the typical sports cars that I could conceivably afford except for the Corvette and Porsche. So I decided to read a little history about the car. I'm still learning but it didn't take long to discover why they don't make them anymore. Plain and simple they never sold very many even before the Great Recession. So here is a simple graph of sales. I got my data from Wikipedia to the extent it was available. The data availability in Wikipedia is uneven with respect to years. I just focused on American Sales. Some of the cars including the Porsche and S2000s had significant sales in Japan and Europe. I included a Toyota Camry in my graph to give some perspective on how sales of S2000 and other sports cars compare to a popular sedan. If the graph doesn't publish clearly I will try to figure out how to make it work. Please bear with me. I hope it is useful or at least mildly interesting. jv1 jv1

[TheCarGuy2021]

Great graph, thanks.

I think it would have been a little better if the scale weren't exponential though as it would have offered a better "picture".

[Charlie Croker]

Dude,

That was the strangest graph I've ever seen, but I get it! Thanks.

I don't know why they didn't make more of the S or why they axed it, but be thankful you own one. Many here feel that these cars will not appreciate in value, but I beg to differ. From my perspective a well maintained "S" will only increase in value as the bozo's that tend to push these machines way beyond their driving abilities, crash them.

My 03 has a little over 22,000 on it. I drive it in spurts, avoiding wet weather. My daily drive is a 2011 Nissan Rogue. I have no plans to ever part with this vehicle.

When you look at the total production numbers, it's about 100,000 over 10 years, world wide. And looking at the production numbers, the bulk in 9 years. Assuming 50,000 made it to the US, and half are remaining, then that leaves 25,000 available. I ain't giving mine up so make that 24,999 left spread amongst 50 states and I'm guessing not all that many are available at any given time. With a 5% attrition rate, these cars ar slim pickens to me.

I believe that these cars will become more valuable in the distant future. Probably not right away, but increasing over the next 10 years or so. I don't see any competition in it's class.

Please correct me if I am wrong with my above assessment. Some here only want to drive this car and have no long term interests, I personally want to preserve it's value as best I can. For me, this car is not an investment as much as a stress release and I want it available to me!

I am constantly amazed at the feel of this vehicle, from the press of the start button to closing my top at night time, to me there is nothing like it, especially for the money.

[jv1]

Originally Posted by TheCarGuy2021

Great graph, thanks.

I think it would have been a little better if the scale weren't exponential though as it would have offered a better "picture".

I considered that possibility but I didn't think the trends for the smaller numbers would show up very well. Anyway, here it is without the exponential scaling:

[jv1]

Originally Posted by Charlie Croker

Dude,

That was the strangest graph I've ever seen, but I get it! Thanks.

I don't know why they didn't make more of the S or why they axed it, but be thankful you own one. Many here feel that these cars will not appreciate in value, but I beg to differ. From my perspective a well maintained "S" will only increase in value as the bozo's that tend to push these machines way beyond their driving abilities, crash them.

My 03 has a little over 22,000 on it. I drive it in spurts, avoiding wet weather. My daily drive is a 2011 Nissan Rogue. I have no plans to ever part with this vehicle.

When you look at the total production numbers, it's about 100,000 over 10 years, world wide. And looking at the production numbers, the bulk in 9 years. Assuming 50,000 made it to the US, and half are remaining, then that leaves 25,000 available. I ain't giving mine up so make that 24,999 left spread amongst 50 states and I'm guessing not all that many are available at any given time. With a 5% attrition rate, these cars ar slim pickens to me.

I believe that these cars will become more valuable in the distant future. Probably not right away, but increasing over the next 10 years or so. I don't see any competition in it's class.

Please correct me if I am wrong with my above assessment. Some here only want to drive this car and have no long term interests, I personally want to preserve it's value as best I can. For me, this car is not an investment as much as a stress release and I want it available to me!

I am constantly amazed at the feel of this vehicle, from the press of the start button to closing my top at night time, to me there is nothing like it, especially for the money.

[jv1]

Charlie, very funny observation about crashes. I think there could be like 90% remaining. The total sold in U.S. is 66,542 according to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S2000 So my guess is that there may be more than 50,000. I'll try to get some info on this so stay tuned. I agree with your sentiments about the feel good stress release and the feel of the vehicle. I'm amazed at how fast I fell in love with mine. Also you're right about the availability. I think the demand versus supply will keep these cars from depreciating except proportional to mileage. Most seem to have relatively few miles. Same low mileage seems to be true for Corvettes altho there are a whole lot more of those on the market and I think this has perhaps resulted in faster depreciation. But I'm just speculating on this. Data is the key.

Just did a quick calculation on Corvettes. They produced 1.5 million Corvettes over 57 years and about 750,000 or half are still registered in U.S. So they are available and IMHO lots of them have spent most of their time sitting in a garage. It's obviously lots easier to buy one of those then an S2000.

I have one question. Since I've only had my S2000 for less than a week and have been reading a lot of posts on this forum, I'm curious why owners don't want to drive their cars in the rain. I'm assuming it's some fear of going into a slide. But if you take it easy on the acceleration and don't blast through curves when the pavement is wet, should it be any more of a concern than all the other small cars, for instance a Corolla or Civic? Of course with lower horsepower cars you don't have the temptation or ability to over accelerate.

jv1

[agski]

JV1 that was good data. It's amazing to me that the S2000 never out sold the Miata even though the entry level Miata is $10,000 cheaper. The S2000 is so much more car than the Miata and its scarcity makes it very desirable IMO.

[Java Junky]

'Can't imagine'att'att da askin' price Mudda Honda wuzz makin'a whole lot on'a sale'a Stewiez.
Han' assembled by Mudda'z bes' techz alone made'em more'n wort'da askin' price.
'Z'good'z'idd'izz . . I'd really like to have'da abilidy'da pick up another down'a road . . but small numbaz draw'da inneres'a'da ruin-itt-fuh-everybody collectaz.
'Dey don't care whudd'a ride'kin'doo . . ta'dem, itt'z'da ownin'n . . all I dink'a'z'da las' scene in Raidaz, where'da Arc (propaly crated-up) izz bein' stashed away on'a shelf in some big warehouse.
'Collectaz bring'eir headz upp long'anuff from deir Franklin Mint catalogz'n decide Stewie'z'da ding'da have . . un@*#&ed-wit' Stewie'll be'z rare'z hen'z teeth'n da pricez . . . . fuhgeddaboudditt.
('Flat-out hayde itt when somethin' good gettz "discovered".)

[Vanishing Point]

S2000 sales were flat for at least the final three years of production, with models sitting in dealers lots for weeks to months at a time. Honda pulled the plug as a result, like it or not the S2000/CR is a limited production car with an even more finite group of owners.

[Switchblade]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

('Flat-out hayde itt when somethin' good gettz "discovered".)

Now THAT sounds familiar!!

[Marioshi]

10 years is a long run for a sports car that saw little change. Story goes that Honda was only going to produce it for 1 year as a anniversary gift to the world and that sales were so high that they kept making it for 10 years.

Comparing it to Camry sales is bonkers, that doesnt tell us anything except what we already know, the Camry is very popular. The Miata comparison is interesting but as someone pointed out they are 10,000 less. I say the s2000 did pretty good considering.

Subaru BRZ/Scion FRS will be an s2000 contender. 2500lbs, low mounted boxer 2.0L. Built specfically to be turned into a convertible later. Power is estimated at 200hp from the get go but that puts it on par with the s2000 as far as power to weight and you know they will bring out a hot version (hopefully with 300hp).

[Switchblade]

Originally Posted by Marioshi

you know they will bring out a hot version (hopefully with 300hp).

300 HP would be great! However I don't think it will be right away....

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/01/s...-la-auto-show/

[Java Junky]

'D'look'a'whole lot bedda widdout'da acne-wing.

[Gadgetmanconnor]

Seeing how many of these cars there actually are, it makes me appreciate my S even more!

[TheCarGuy2021]

Originally Posted by jv1

I considered that possibility but I didn't think the trends for the smaller numbers would show up very well. Anyway, here it is without the exponential scaling:

Thanks

[Charlie Croker]

Originally Posted by jv1

I have one question. Since I've only had my S2000 for less than a week and have been reading a lot of posts on this forum, I'm curious why owners don't want to drive their cars in the rain. I'm assuming it's some fear of going into a slide. But if you take it easy on the acceleration and don't blast through curves when the pavement is wet, should it be any more of a concern than all the other small cars, for instance a Corolla or Civic? Of course with lower horsepower cars you don't have the temptation or ability to over accelerate.

jv1

For starters, I would advize you to view some of the videos on "Snap Oversteer" and the "S". You will learn very quickly about some of the quirkiness of these cars when improperly driven.

As for your question jv, these things just don't like water on the road. They are tail happy on dry roads. I was making a slightly down hill, properly banked right turn from one road to another road that immediately started back uphill, after a slight rain . I hit the water that had accumulated at about 20 mph and instantly did two complete spins before I knew what happened.

I've been driving for over 40 years, all kinds of vehicles in all kinds of weather, hydroplaned, slipped, slide and I've never experienced something like this before. I gained a whole lot of respect for this car since. As the pros here constantly mention: "Get to know your car before you push it!"....... Best advice I've ever received!

[Marioshi]

Originally Posted by jv1

I have one question. Since I've only had my S2000 for less than a week and have been reading a lot of posts on this forum, I'm curious why owners don't want to drive their cars in the rain. I'm assuming it's some fear of going into a slide. But if you take it easy on the acceleration and don't blast through curves when the pavement is wet, should it be any more of a concern than all the other small cars, for instance a Corolla or Civic? Of course with lower horsepower cars you don't have the temptation or ability to over accelerate.

jv1

Not all s2000 owners are fearful of the rain JV. With decent tires, it shouldnt be any scarier than driving any other car. I daily drove my s2000 last year through one of the wettest winters we have had in a while. Even with standing water I didnt run into any issues.

Having said that, its a lot different than driving a Civic or Corolla. Those cars are FWD which means you wont ever find the rear wheels trying to outpace the fronts. Also, they have about half the horsepower.

My advice, make sure you have good tread on your tires, drive real slow, and take the corners as smooth as possible and you will be fine in the rain.

A lot of people have their s2000 as a toy/2nd car. Thats mostly why they dont drive in the rain. Keeping it pristine and all that.

[Charlie Croker]

Originally Posted by Marioshi

Not all s2000 owners are fearful of the rain JV. With decent tires, it shouldnt be any scarier than driving any other car. I daily drove my s2000 last year through one of the wettest winters we have had in a while. Even with standing water I didnt run into any issues.

Having said that, its a lot different than driving a Civic or Corolla. Those cars are FWD which means you wont ever find the rear wheels trying to outpace the fronts. Also, they have about half the horsepower.

My advice, make sure you have good tread on your tires, drive real slow, and take the corners as smooth as possible and you will be fine in the rain.

A lot of people have their s2000 as a toy/2nd car. Thats mostly why they dont drive in the rain. Keeping it pristine and all that.

Mario,

FWIW, my S has relatively new Continentals with maybe 1500 miles on them. I do not spin or slide them often and rarely push the car, so the tires are in excellent shape. I just respect the rain and just wish not to be in that zone when driving it unless I have to. This is not about being fearful or scared, but rather not wanting to have it happen and ruin my car. We get rain in Tx about once a decade, so no reason to put my car in any unnecessary jeopardy as there are more happy days available than not. MHO!

[Java Junky]

Papa Mario (No. Not datt Mario. No. Not'datt one eida.) used'da be alwayz sayin': "Drivin' hard in'a rain'z'da poor man'z Bondurant (or Barber)."

[Marioshi]

Originally Posted by Charlie Croker

Mario,

FWIW, my S has relatively new Continentals with maybe 1500 miles on them. I do not spin or slide them often and rarely push the car, so the tires are in excellent shape. I just respect the rain and just wish not to be in that zone when driving it unless I have to. MHO!

I hear you, for sure. I just think its entirely possible to drive the s2000 in the rain safely. It can be a little more stressful if you are constantly concerned about spinning out though. This car has its quirks for sure. JV has a 2007 though, so he has traction control, which should help.

[Charlie Croker]

Originally Posted by Marioshi

I hear you, for sure. I just think its entirely possible to drive the s2000 in the rain safely. It can be a little more stressful if you are constantly concerned about spinning out though. This car has its quirks for sure. JV has a 2007 though, so he has traction control, which should help.

I totally agree! Just want jv to sit back and think about his question and maybe get different opinions. I do feel blessed to not have done damage in my spin experience though.

[Marioshi]

Originally Posted by Charlie Croker

I totally agree! Just want jv to sit back and think about his question and maybe get different opinions. I do feel blessed to not have done damage in my spin experience though.

+1. Itd be a shame to lose ya or for your to lose/damage your baby .

[jv1]

Thanks for all the good advice. I had the pig-killer experience so know the rain can be hazardous. However I'm glad to get some encouragement that longer trips that involve the uncertainty of humid climates may be possible. My wife and I are interested in the Antietam event to be held in Maryland. I expect there might be plenty of people showing up with their S2000s even though they might hit some wet roads over the course of their journey.

I'll watch the tires and won't plan to go out of my way to find wet pavement. Thanks everyone.

jv1

[jv1]

Originally Posted by agski

JV1 that was good data. It's amazing to me that the S2000 never out sold the Miata even though the entry level Miata is $10,000 cheaper. The S2000 is so much more car than the Miata and its scarcity makes it very desirable IMO.

Agski, $10,000 is almost as much some members have to spend on their S2000. I might agree with your post if the difference was $2,000. Remember, not everyone is righteously in the "brotherhood" as Vanishing Point puts it. My personal breakeven point between these cars when I was making my decision was about $5,000. That could go up or down as I gain more experience. I keep trying to get my best friend let me drive his Miata. That would be a second data point as I have driven a Miata with automatic. I will have to say it didn't bring the intense smile to my face as did the S2000s I've driven.

There is only the realism of the market as people are constrained by money and knowledge.

Cheers, jv1

[jv1]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

Papa Mario (No. Not datt Mario. No. Not'datt one eida.) used'da be alwayz sayin': "Drivin' hard in'a rain'z'da poor man'z Bondurant (or Barber)."

I'm beginning to understand Java Junky and even like his strange idiom. Is there something wrong with me? Probably.

jv1

[jv1]

Originally Posted by Marioshi

+1. Itd be a shame to lose ya or for your to lose/damage your baby .

I'll try to keep my S2000 garaged or my pavement dry. Actually is misty and rainy in et today, tomorrow. Nice dry weather starting Thursday. Actually the prognosticators are little better than randomized noise around Knoxville.

Does anyone know how you get to be a senior member on this Forum? I'm 62, seems like that should qualify me.

jv1

[Marioshi]

Originally Posted by jv1

I'll try to keep my S2000 garaged or my pavement dry. Actually is misty and rainy in et today, tomorrow. Nice dry weather starting Thursday. Actually the prognosticators are little better than randomized noise around Knoxville.

Does anyone know how you get to be a senior member on this Forum? I'm 62, seems like that should qualify me.

jv1

Lol. Its just a title that changes after a certain number of posts. You can change it to whatever you want under "User CP" in the upper left corner of the site then click on "edit your details" and look for the box labeled "Custom User Title". I attached a screenshot.

[Marioshi]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

'D'look'a'whole lot bedda widdout'da acne-wing.

Dont worry JJ, the initial version will likely be without the wing. The pic switch linked is a concept STI version.

[Switchblade]

Originally Posted by Marioshi

Dont worry JJ, the initial version will likely be without the wing. The pic switch linked is a concept STI version.

Yup, that one is the STI version (they always have crazy wings). Here's another pic:






Some rumors of a convertible version as well. I REALLY hope so!!
http://www.egmcartech.com/2011/10/26...consideration/

[Marioshi]

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Yup, that one is the STI version (they always have crazy wings). Here's another pic:

Gawd, lets hope it doesnt have that regular impreza front end look. I think what you found there is someones indepedent rendering of what it might look like. Motor trend took a ride in a prototype and gave it a very good review and subaru confirmed that it was designed with a convertible version in mind. Hopefully the front end looks more like the official renderings:


Here is the link to the article.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...e_first_drive/

Ill give a full report when I see the real thing next week at the LA auto show.

[Java Junky]

Okay . . 'had aboudd'anuff'a'diss rain-$hit.
Firs'n foremos': tirez. I can dink'a no 4-wheeled street vehicle (widdin my price-range) datt'z more tire-sensitive'n Stewie izz.
I can dink'a no 4-wheeled street vehicle (widdin my price-range) datt'z more tire-pressure-sensitive'n Stewie izz.
I can dink'a no (come on kiddiez, some'a'yuhz godda be catchin' on by now) 4-wheeled street vehicle (widdin my price-range) datt'z more attitude-change-sensitive'n Stewie izz.
Mudda Honda wasn't shootin'a supply soccer-momz wit' yet'anudda minivan when she hadd'er pocket-protector gang cobble Stewie up.
Stewie wuzz intended (radda successfully, wun'cha say?) ta be'da bes' street-stalkin' sportscar in'da less'n telephone-numba price-range.
Ergo, Stewie'z been set up'da dance on'a edge.
And dance on'da edge Stewie'kin doo. But Stewie deman'z yer attention.
Stewie don't like bein' dought'uv'n certainly not treated'z a lesser vehicle.
(You guyz gettin'a certain familiaridy here? Yep. Stewie'z female.)
Don't go missin' out on what drivin' Stewie in'a rain hazz'da offer.
Itt'z not gonna happen in'a weekend'n possibly nodd'even in'a month.
But when'yuh start gettin'a hang'uv'itt . . . itt'z'a drug.

But to start drivin' in'a rain: good rain hoops, proper tire pressures (checked regularly, not once'a @*#&in' month!) and, as our elder statesman Philiam is always so correctly repeatin': "smooth".
Stewie sufferz not a spazz behine'da wheel.
Smooth.
('N, iff'yuh godda . . take notez'z'yuh progress.)

[Charlie Croker]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

Okay . . 'had aboudd'anuff'a'diss rain-$hit.
Firs'n foremos': tirez. I can dink'a no 4-wheeled street vehicle (widdin my price-range) datt'z more tire-sensitive'n Stewie izz.
I can dink'a no 4-wheeled street vehicle (widdin my price-range) datt'z more tire-pressure-sensitive'n Stewie izz.
I can dink'a no (come on kiddiez, some'a'yuhz godda be catchin' on by now) 4-wheeled street vehicle (widdin my price-range) datt'z more attitude-change-sensitive'n Stewie izz.
Mudda Honda wasn't shootin'a supply soccer-momz wit' yet'anudda minivan when she hadd'er pocket-protector gang cobble Stewie up.
Stewie wuzz intended (radda successfully, wun'cha say?) ta be'da bes' street-stalkin' sportscar in'da less'n telephone-numba price-range.
Ergo, Stewie'z been set up'da dance on'a edge.
And dance on'da edge Stewie'kin doo. But Stewie deman'z yer attention.
Stewie don't like bein' dought'uv'n certainly not treated'z a lesser vehicle.
(You guyz gettin'a certain familiaridy here? Yep. Stewie'z female.)
Don't go missin' out on what drivin' Stewie in'a rain hazz'da offer.
Itt'z not gonna happen in'a weekend'n possibly nodd'even in'a month.
But when'yuh start gettin'a hang'uv'itt . . . itt'z'a drug.

But to start drivin' in'a rain: good rain hoops, proper tire pressures (checked regularly, not once'a @*#&in' month!) and, as our elder statesman Philiam is always so correctly repeatin': "smooth".
Stewie sufferz not a spazz behine'da wheel.
Smooth.
('N, iff'yuh godda . . take notez'z'yuh progress.)

But JJ, wasn't it you that recently reminded us all of the falling leave situation? I can't tell you how sick I get when I hear of some young bozo not following your lead and wrapping their car around the nearest telephone pole because of lack of understanding how these cars demand respect!

....... and yes, most certainly a drug!

[Java Junky]

Absatootly CC.
So much'uv'itt comez unda'da headin'a "payin' attention".
Stewie'll no more le'cha dumb-dee-dumb along in'a wrong gear'n she will le'cha slide ('Gedd'itt? Slide?) on day-dreamin' t'rough'a corna.
'Worse pard'about'datt izz . . sometimez'yuh'kin gedd'away widd'itt . . 'n'iff'yuh'doo . . yuh start dinkin'att itt'z okay.
Idd'ain't.
'N'iff'da lady'z disrespected by inattentiveness . . dink Bobbitt.

Boddum line'izz'att Stewie'z'a very special, very capable ride gifted'da us by Mudda.
Stewie duzzn't jus' give'itt'upp'ta anybody.
Yuh want whut Stewie'z got'ta offa, yuh godda pay'yer duez.

'Seein' more'n more t'readz about track-dayz'n autoX. 'Nothin' like no traffic'r bluemen'da worry about'n lotz'a clear spin-out room.
Give'er'a shot.

[jagg]

Stewie duzzn't jus' give'itt'upp'ta anybody.

true.

you have to be willing to wring the livin' piss out of it , which seems counter-intuitive, but the reward is worth the effort.

jagg

[Java Junky]

Ah glasshoppa!
But linging riving piss out of Stewie wi'hout firs' rearning yin yang of Stewie izz ultimately to be rike upside-down pirot: have clack-upp.

[Charlie Croker]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

Ah glasshoppa!
But linging riving piss out of Stewie wi'hout firs' rearning yin yang of Stewie izz ultimately to be rike upside-down pirot: have clack-upp.

JJ,

You're tri-lingual?????? Impressive!!!!!!

[Glenn1]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

Ah glasshoppa!
But linging riving piss out of Stewie wi'hout firs' rearning yin yang of Stewie izz ultimately to be rike upside-down pirot: have clack-upp.

My universal translator just gave up on me.

Lt. Uhura...a minute pls.

[tmv36830]

JV,

I do not drive my car in the rain (if at all possible) because rain water gets thrown in strange places and jungle rott eventually settles in. I am the proud owner of a 1979 Z/28 Camaro that rarely has seen the rain and has absolutely no rust anywhere. I compare my Z to other Z's at car shows and rarely do I see one that has not had some type rust repair. I contribute my rust free car to the fact it has stayed out of the rain.

Now before you ask if washing it does not do the same, I have to tell you that I do not wash my car with water. I use a quick detailer after I drive it (every time) and I wax it with a liquid wax once every 4 months or so.

Seems to have worked.

[Glenn1]

^^Which begs the question...what do you drive in the rain?

[Java Junky]

'All comez unda'da headin'a diff'rent strokez tm.
While I cringe't'da dought'a'da accumulayded damage my yearz'a runnin' Stewie in'a rain, snow, salt . . . da occasional refrigerayder door'n ice berm . . Stewie'z'a tool'n I'll be @*#&ed'iff I'm gonna be it's dribble-catcher jus' so'z some udda bozo can properly enjoy'itt down'a pike, y'know?

And Glenn (Lord knowz I mus' like'yuh'z I'm alwayz translaytin' for'yuh.)
"But linging riving piss out of Stewie wi'hout firs' rearning yin yang of Stewie izz ultimately to be rike upside-down pirot: have clack-upp.":
Exhuberence at the gas pedal without vehicle experience and familiarity is a sure formula for disaster.
(Personry . . I rike fus' one.)