Octane Booster

[wgrandmont]

Does anyone know if raising the fuel octane will make any kind of performance differance in either an AP1 or AP2? I only ask because prior to buying my 07 S2000 I owned a Mazda speed 6, which is turbo charged and redlined at 6800-7000. Anyway, the rev limiter on that car was basically a knock sensor and at about 7000 RPM with 93 octane it was all done. I purchased some Toracel (sp) octane booster and the engine would then pull up to 8000 RPM where I basiclly chickened out. Worked pretty good till I blew out the turbo seals.

[turbosix]

no, octane booster will do nothing for our cars. most octane boosters are full of crap, when they say "raises a tank of gas by 5 points" they mean 93 -> 93.5, not 98. the

engine is tuned to run on 91-93 octane, if you raise the octane it will do nothing.

[Vezna31]

Yep...waste of money. You will get better performance filling up with 100 octane at a VP Racing station. Of course, you will also spend $8/gallon.

[jake2k]

Turbo what if the octane was lower say you put the regular 87 in the car. Nothing just less performance?

Don't worry i haven't done this.

[desmo4]

There is one that actually raises the octane rating by 1.0 point. CD2 offroad. But it is still a collection of unknown stuff and it costs $8.00 a bottle. But when I had an emergency, no 100 unleaded available with only my Mugen ECU installed I put in 2 bottles in and made it home without the engine knocking. With only 91 octane available the Mugen ECU will not run without seriously knocking. 100 octane unleaded is the best solution. Unocal is the best Sunoco is rubbish. 2 gallons of 100 octane unleaded in our 13 gallon tanks fill with 91 octane here in CA will up the octane to 94.3. You may extrapolate if you need higher octane or just run 100% 100 octane you will definely feel a difference in performance. Because when 100 burns it has a much faster progation across the combustion chamber. The result is a bigger bang for your $70 of juice in your gas tank.

Jonathan

[TheCarGuy2021]

Originally Posted by desmo4

You may extrapolate if you need higher octane or just run 100% 100 octane you will definely feel a difference in performance. Because when 100 burns it has a much faster progation across the combustion chamber.

Some misinformation here.

1) Higher octane gas burns slower, not faster.

2) You will only get an increase in power if you can advance ignition timing or add more boost (boosted applications). Just pouring higher octane gas in your tank without doing anything (when no knock is currently present) else is a complete 100% waste of money.

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by TheCarGuy2021

2) You will only get an increase in power if you can advance ignition timing or add more boost (boosted applications). Just pouring higher octane gas in your tank without doing anything (when no knock is currently present) else is a complete 100% waste of money.

Well, I definitely felt enhanced performance on 100% 100 octane the day after my track day. The response was instant and the car just wanted TO GO. I drive the car enough to know when there s a difference.

[wgrandmont]

The octane booster I used was "Torco" and it is very expensive. 6 quarts is $124. One quart raises 10 gallons of 93 octane to 100 to 104 octane. I tried octane boosters from Auto Zone etc. and there was no comparrision. On the Mazda Turbo it made a big difference in top end, but there was a loss of power at the very low end.

[TheCarGuy2021]

Originally Posted by Vezna31

Well, I definitely felt enhanced performance on 100% 100 octane the day after my track day. The response was instant and the car just wanted TO GO. I drive the car enough to know when there s a difference.

Your computer must have been able to advance ignition timing a few degrees. Energy in gasoline is measured in the form of BTUs.
-87 octane gas usually has a BTU content of ~114,000-115,000 BTUs/gallon.
-93 octane gas usually has a BTU content of ~110,000-111,000 BTUs/gallon.
-For reference, diesel gas has a BTU content of ~146,000-148,000 BTUs/gallon.

The only ways higher octane gasoline can increase power are to either raise compression (boost) due to higher octane gas resisting detonation (burns slower), or advancing ignition timing (slower burn therefore advancing timing will result in a longer, more efficient power stroke).

Comparing 87 to 93, 87 has a higher energy content. Not changing timing, compression, and other factors (temperature, etc.) will result in 87 octane gas producing more power in an engine. However, 87 burns faster therefore resulting in limited compression and a shorter power stroke limiting timing advancement.

[turbosix]

Listen to tcg folks, I was gonna post that but he beat me to it.

[desmo4]

Originally Posted by TheCarGuy2021

Some misinformation here.

1) Higher octane gas burns slower, not faster.

2) You will only get an increase in power if you can advance ignition timing or add more boost (boosted applications). Just pouring higher octane gas in your tank without doing anything (when no knock is currently present) else is a complete 100% waste of money.

100 octane unleaded is nothing like pump gas. It is you who are misinformed. octane prevents pre-ignition and detonation. 100 octane unleaded has some very light fractions which promote faster burning once ignited. This info comes directly from the Unocal answer man in Santa Barbara. And seeing as I have run it and others all report the same performance gains. If I could afford it ($70 a fill up) I would run it all the time.

Jonathan

[fltsfshr]

If you can tune for it, higher octane will produce better performance. Rather than waste your money on octane booster, put some Toulene in your tank. If you're real old school, you can add some marvel mystery oil in it to make you feel better. There's lots of toulene recipes out there. Honda used to run all their f1 cars on it.

If you can't tune for it, it's a waste of money. I think your S comes stock tuned at 91 octane.

fltsfshr

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by desmo4

100 octane unleaded is nothing like pump gas. It is you who are misinformed. octane prevents pre-ignition and detonation. 100 octane unleaded has some very light fractions which promote faster burning once ignited. This info comes directly from the Unocal answer man in Santa Barbara. And seeing as I have run it and others all report the same performance gains. If I could afford it ($70 a fill up) I would run it all the time.

Jonathan

I'm agreeing with Jonathan on this one. I let John and Morgan (S2KX2 & Hell On Wheels) drive my car with 100 octane and they felt the difference too.

[TheCarGuy2021]

Originally Posted by desmo4

100 octane unleaded is nothing like pump gas. It is you who are misinformed. octane prevents pre-ignition and detonation. 100 octane unleaded has some very light fractions which promote faster burning once ignited. This info comes directly from the Unocal answer man in Santa Barbara. And seeing as I have run it and others all report the same performance gains. If I could afford it ($70 a fill up) I would run it all the time.

Jonathan

You seem to have missed my point. Care to explain the science behind why a faster burn will result in more power?

My source is first hand, with over 7 years of automotive schooling.

[flyingarmadillo]

Originally Posted by desmo4

100 octane unleaded is nothing like pump gas. It is you who are misinformed. octane prevents pre-ignition and detonation. 100 octane unleaded has some very light fractions which promote faster burning once ignited. This info comes directly from the Unocal answer man in Santa Barbara. And seeing as I have run it and others all report the same performance gains. If I could afford it ($70 a fill up) I would run it all the time.

Jonathan

The Unocal guy who told you that has been sniffing too much of his product. Unocal 100 is formulated to be street legal which means it's the same as other pump gas it just has a higher octane rating: http://www.leesracing.com/fuelspec/g1.pdf. As for the "feels more powerful" crowd, seat of the pants dynos are notoriuosly inaccurate. This isn't exactly our engine, but here's a link to dyno results: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...gas/index.html

[wgrandmont]

I guess my original question should have been: Will the electronics on the S2000 sense that no knock is occuring and advance the timing thus taking advantage of higher octane?

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by wgrandmont

I guess my original question should have been: Will the electronics on the S2000 sense that no knock is occuring and advance the timing thus taking advantage of higher octane?

I believe it does, just like it will retard the timing if you put in 87 octane.

[HondamakesS2000s]

octane rating simply refers a ratio of iso-octane and heptane. the more iso-octane, the higher the rating. having said that, the s2k has a high compression ratio which means it will detonate fuel faster than a lower compression ratio engine. this is just due to the higher pressure. lower octane rating fuels will detonate faster than a higher octane rating fuel (faster detonation does mean more energy....the science? simply put, more potential energy = easier/faster detonation. this is why lower rating fuels produce more btus). Anyway, to prevent premature detonation, the s2k requires a higher octane rating fuel which will detonate slower, matching the higher compression ratio. its just a matter of matching the detonation level of a fuel with the compression "pressure" of an engine.

so, technically higher octane fuels (higher than 91-93) should not produce better performance since the rating is matched to the compression ratio, but if you put, lets say, 100 octane rating fuel in the s2k, there will be a noticeable increase in "performance". this is because the higher octane fuel results in slightly higher compression ratio. (compression ratios are not set in stone. if you use 87 octane rating and measure compression ratio, it will be slightly lower) i dont know if this is due to the ecu adjusting fuel mixtures, timing, ect...who knows i dont know, but higher octane does increase compression ratio ever so slightly. maybe because higher octane=more fuel burned=more energy readily available?? (more energy, even though less btus per unit of fuel, because more fuel is being burned)

[D1sclaimer]

I don't really think raising your octane level will increase your performance in a near stock car(bolt-ons, etc) with the stock ecu, especially for the cost. I was running shit Kum and Go 91 gas while spraying nitrous on stock timing. I don't think a higher octane would have netted me more hp. Higher octane would have let me run more nitrous on stock timing. Pretty much like ghetto tune without a tune.

In other words, IMO if you can't tune for it, its wasting money. But thats just my 2 cents on it. Luckily I have an AEM EMS now

[turbosix]

Originally Posted by flyingarmadillo

The Unocal guy who told you that has been sniffing too much of his product. Unocal 100 is formulated to be street legal which means it's the same as other pump gas it just has a higher octane rating: http://www.leesracing.com/fuelspec/g1.pdf. As for the "feels more powerful" crowd, seat of the pants dynos are notoriuosly inaccurate. This isn't exactly our engine, but here's a link to dyno results: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...gas/index.html

des:
Pump Gas Versus Race Gas
Octane rating is defined as the resistance to detonation a fuel has in an internal-combustion engine. The higher the number, the more resistance it has. That is why engines with higher compression require higher-octane fuel. As a result of its resistance to detonation, it has a resistance to burn as well. This resistance to burn is a non-issue in motors tuned to the edge; the edge being just before detonation occurs. When a pump-gas engine is subjected to a higher-octane race fuel, it may result in a decrease in power from an incomplete burn.

[S2KCRick]

I put in $80 worth of 100 oct a few months back and didnt notice a difference. Im rolling with tcg and t6 on this one.

[wgrandmont]

Originally Posted by S2KCRick

I put in $80 worth of 100 oct a few months back and didnt notice a difference. Im rolling with tcg and t6 on this one.

I think you just answered the question I was asking. Thanks.

[HondamakesS2000s]

putting in higher octane does increase "performance" ever so slightly....it has to. this is because the higher octane means lower detonation rate which means the ecu adjusts the fuel mixture and timing to burn MORE fuel. More fuel (even with less btus per unit fuel) means more energy produced from the fuel.

however, to get the proper/maximum power from a higher octane rating fuel, the ecu and compression ratio would need to be tuned. any observed increase in performance using 100 octane fuel is due to "forced" higher compression ratios. i imagine thats not good for the engine but at the same time it cant be too bad for the engine. so, if you think youre accelerating faster with higher octanes, and you think its worth 50-100 bucks, then go for it. for everyday driving, the best fuel economy and probably about equal performance is produced using the octane rating suited for the engines compression ratio, which for the s2k would be 91-93 depending what octane rating fuels are available.

[turbosix]

Originally Posted by HondamakesS2000s

putting in higher octane does increase "performance" ever so slightly....it has to. this is because the higher octane means lower detonation rate which means the ecu adjusts the fuel mixture and timing to burn MORE fuel. More fuel (even with less btus per unit fuel) means more energy produced from the fuel..

the ecu is not going to advance timing on its own to take advantage of higher octane fuel, period.

[stea1thviper]

Originally Posted by D1sclaimer

I don't really think raising your octane level will increase your performance in a near stock car(bolt-ons, etc) with the stock ecu, especially for the cost. I was running shit Kum and Go 91 gas while spraying nitrous on stock timing. I don't think a higher octane would have netted me more hp. Higher octane would have let me run more nitrous on stock timing. Pretty much like ghetto tune without a tune.

In other words, IMO if you can't tune for it, its wasting money. But thats just my 2 cents on it. Luckily I have an AEM EMS now

You were running an EMS on a NA engine? Aren't they like $1000+? How much of a hp gain did you get by tuning for 100 octane gas with this? I can't imagine it would be worth the cost unless you went with a custom FI build.

[dezignpro04]

Originally Posted by stea1thviper

You were running an EMS on a NA engine? Aren't they like $1000+? How much of a hp gain did you get by tuning for 100 octane gas with this? I can't imagine it would be worth the cost unless you went with a custom FI build.

There is alot you can do to a N/A with an ems to get power. I know of people who after a couple of good mods with an EMS tune and dyno got good results. This is even more if you run a higher octane and use ITB's and tune the setup.

FWIW the $$ for the EMS is little to cough at, it is the rest of the N/A mods that are going to break the bank. And lets not even start talking about a good proper tune, and dont expect to get it write the first time - it is a trial and error scenario. If I can find the link - there is a guy who went all motor and dyno'd 278hp to the wheels. But he was running a 2.7 litre stroker kit with ITB's - talk about $$$$$$$$$$

[desmo4]

Run a mugen ecu in CA, you can't on 91 octane pump gas so you must some how get the octane up to 93. Either add 2 bottles of CD2 off road and have a mystery in your tank or add 2 gallons of 100 octane unleaded to 11 gallons of 91. But what you seem to miss is the the formulation of 100 octane race gas is not the same as 91 octane pump gas. Yes it has more isotane but it also has other light fractions in it that promote combustion. That is why they tell to store it in a sealed metal contained and use it quickly. Those light fraction will dissipate with exposure to light and air and they what cause the bigger bang once the charge in the combustion chamber is lit. And that is why you feel the extra power from it.

Jonathan

[D1sclaimer]

Originally Posted by stea1thviper

You were running an EMS on a NA engine? Aren't they like $1000+? How much of a hp gain did you get by tuning for 100 octane gas with this? I can't imagine it would be worth the cost unless you went with a custom FI build.

Its worth the cost to me for an EMS. Especially the cheap 875 dollars shipped brand new.

Why are you wondering why I bought it? It was a great investment even for my current setup. Read my post you quoted again. I'm not tuning it NA with 100 octane fuel. Why waste the money on that?

[stea1thviper]

Originally Posted by D1sclaimer

Its worth the cost to me for an EMS. Especially the cheap 875 dollars shipped brand new.

Why are you wondering why I bought it? It was a great investment even for my current setup. Read my post you quoted again. I'm not tuning it NA with 100 octane fuel. Why waste the money on that?

I was wondering why you bought it because at that price, I assumed that you were the type who probably knew what you were doing, and knew the kind of hp increase you were looking to gain with this setup. If 875 is considered cheap, I'm also assuming you've dynoed it before and after as well to document the power gain?

Info for those of us who haven't done this yet would be appreciated =)

[D1sclaimer]

Originally Posted by stea1thviper

I was wondering why you bought it because at that price, I assumed that you were the type who probably knew what you were doing, and knew the kind of hp increase you were looking to gain with this setup. If 875 is considered cheap, I'm also assuming you've dynoed it before and after as well to document the power gain?

Info for those of us who haven't done this yet would be appreciated =)

875 is considered cheap because its normally over a grand brand new. Not because I have money(because I don't).

No dyno before and after. My clutch took a dump on me after I street tuned for the 80whp shot (biggest jet I had). I have dyno'd my car twice before, but not with the EMS. Only reason why I bought the EMS was to tune for a higher shot. If I was NA, I don't know if I would have bought it. Probably not.

I'm far from being a good tuner too. If anyone saw my thread on s2ki asking for help, I made a big mistake and was informed of it by more knowledgable people. Still learning.

[dezignpro04]

Originally Posted by D1sclaimer

875 is considered cheap because its normally over a grand brand new. Not because I have money(because I don't).

No dyno before and after. My clutch took a dump on me after I street tuned for the 80whp shot (biggest jet I had). I have dyno'd my car twice before, but not with the EMS. Only reason why I bought the EMS was to tune for a higher shot. If I was NA, I don't know if I would have bought it. Probably not.

I'm far from being a good tuner too. If anyone saw my thread on s2ki asking for help, I made a big mistake and was informed of it by more knowledgable people. Still learning.

We always are D, but it takes a man to reach out for knowledge! A+ for that bud!

[whitt1]

Torco race fuel concentrate will raise the octane of unleaded 93 to unleaded 104 race gas.It's not cheap but it really works.

[D1sclaimer]

Originally Posted by whitt1

Torco race fuel concentrate will raise the octane of unleaded 93 to unleaded 104 race gas.It's not cheap but it really works.

Are you sure? When they advertise it raising the octane in "points," its not whole numbers. Its tenths of a number. If it said it raised it 11 points, then it would be 94.1ish.

[wgrandmont]

Originally Posted by whitt1

Torco race fuel concentrate will raise the octane of unleaded 93 to unleaded 104 race gas.It's not cheap but it really works.

I was using that when I blew the turbo seals on my Mazda Speed6. Which was my excuse to trade it in for an S2000. It does say that 1 quart raises something like 10 gallons of 93 octane to 104 octane. It is about $35 / quart. It has a noticably different effect than octane booster purchased from say Auto Zone.

[turbosix]

Originally Posted by whitt1

Torco race fuel concentrate will raise the octane of unleaded 93 to unleaded 104 race gas.It's not cheap but it really works.

Originally Posted by D1sclaimer

Are you sure? When they advertise it raising the octane in "points," its not whole numbers. Its tenths of a number. If it said it raised it 11 points, then it would be 94.1ish.

Significantly raises the octane of premium fuel (91 octane): 32 oz. mixed into 10 gallons = 102 octane, 32 oz. mixed into 5 gallons of fuel = 105 octane!

it is probably a mixture of xylene / toluene. which you can buy at paint stores yourself for much cheaper.

[turbosix]

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html

good info.

[D1sclaimer]

Originally Posted by turbosix

it is probably a mixture of xylene / toluene. which you can buy at paint stores yourself for much cheaper.

I would not suggest throwing paint thinner into your engine. But whatever works out for you.

[s2000isu]

s2ki is not the place to ask tuning questions haha. Most people arent willing to help.

[turbosix]

Originally Posted by D1sclaimer

I would not suggest throwing paint thinner into your engine. But whatever works out for you.

i would suggest you learn what xylene and toluene are. they are already present in gasoline.

buick guys have been making home brew 100+ octane for years without issues.

[turbosix]

Originally Posted by s2000isu

s2ki is not the place to ask tuning questions haha. Most people arent willing to help.

man fvck them they wont even share offsets on wheels