Dangerous Handling Characteristics

[S2K-Tampa]

My first, post, lots of info h ere, but not for my specific issue.

I bought a used 2002 S2K last year with 15K miles on it, in great shape and I have had no problems until now at 25K.

The tires the dealer had put on the car were Fuzions. (I guess a Bridgestone makes them.) Well the rears were a little worn and since I bought this car as a hobby and intend on doing a few things to it later this year I decided to just replace the rears.

Now it handles worse than any vehicle I have ever owned and at highspeed the car will not track, an is highly unstable. At 60mph the pucker starts and just gets worse.

The rear seems to have a delay when turning in, and when it does its immediate and scary. Feels like it could break loose at any point when corning (light or heavy) and is not the S2000 I drove before adding teh new rears.

Tires are the only thing I have changed, the pressure is right, they match the tires they replace, exactly, so I'm having a hard time believing this is simply due to the new tires.

There are no strut leaks that I can see, but as far as suspension goes I'm pretty new to troubleshooting and figuring out what is going on.

Any ideas before I take it to the dealer and drop trow?

Thanks

Mike

[kgf3076]

Originally Posted by S2K-Tampa

I bought this car as a hobby and intend on doing a few things to it later this year I decided to just replace the rears.

Now it handles worse than any vehicle I have ever owned and at highspeed the car will not track, an is highly unstable. At 60mph the pucker starts and just gets worse.

Tires are the only thing I have changed, the pressure is right, they match the tires they replace, exactly, so I'm having a hard time believing this is simply due to the new tires.

Mike

Make sure you have the correct tires for the car. The sizing of the fronts and rears is different. S2000's are very sensitive to tire size, make sure the tires you have are right for the vehicle.

[Scott]

Fuzions are not very good tires. I would get something better suited to the vehicle.

[S2000dude]

Ditto the above.

Just wanted to welcome you aboard. It's a friendly place where you'll get good info.

[Java Junky]

Most of us r' drawn to Stewie 'cause'a it's cuttin' edge handlin'. You don't get that kind'a responsiveness without the tires bein' majorly important in providin' that extreme responsiveness.
That translates into tire stagger, size and even the amount of wear into makin' a tremendous difference in how the car handles.
Alodda folks've had good results n' are happy with their Stewies that're wearin' Fuzions. You might jus' hafta replace the fronts to match the grip of the new rears . . . . maybe. Not bein' able to kick the tires makes diagnosis remote, n', at best, majorly iffy.
You're likely drivin' a vehicle that's more precise n' capable than anythin' else that you've ever owned Tampa. Proper balance of grip is gonna be more important on this ride than lesserly hi-strung rides.
Be well n' keep us posted.
Java

[gomarlins3]

I am not familure with Fusion although I have heard of them. If they are directional tires, make sure they are rotating the correct way.

Welcome to the site. I hope you get your problems fixed fast.

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by gomarlins3

I am not familure with Fusion although I have heard of them. If they are directional tires, make sure they are rotating the correct way.

Welcome to the site. I hope you get your problems fixed fast.

Good point. I've heard more than a few stories of tires being mounted in the wrong direction.

In regard to tire size, the stock size in the Bridgestone S02 is 205 & 225, but if you go to a different tire, it is 225 & 245.

Although I had undersized tires the first time replacing, not knowing they beeded to be different, I never had the problem you're describing. The only time I felt the rear being darty was when the installer inflated my rears to 47 & 60 psi. I was all over the road for my 20 mile ride home.

Is it possible they mounted the rears onto the front and vice versa??

You may want to get a wheel alignment. You may have toe out in the rear and that can cause some scary handling.

[Java Junky]

Correct me if I'm wrong (Am I settin' myself up here r' what?) but, over the years I've found a couple'a situations where some yay-hoo had mounted directionals in the wrong direction (one a Ferrarri if you can believe it) n' ridin' in the car before inspection (can you say topsy-turvey priorities?) didn't notice any ill effects in the car's handling.
I was always under the impression that the directional tire was that way because of the way it was wrapped. Usin' it in the wrong direction is not advised, but for a short period of time (as short as possible r' until the first person with eyes advises that "hey . . dummy!") it would not detrimentally affect the handling. Over an extended period of time I'm sure that those directionally wrapped belts would get your attention in some very health-unfriendly ways.
Calm down, calm down. Everybody'll get their shot.
Be well.
Java

[S2K-Tampa]

Thanks for the replies and all of the suggestions.

I've been driving it for a few thousands mile and this change after the tires was immediate and obvious. My last 2 sports cars were the 3rd gen RX7-R1 and and the strange but torquey MCoupe, but this s2000 is the most balanced and handles like its on rails. That RX7's rear always liked to try and come say hello to the headlights while the M just wallowed in the bends if you weren't perfect. Until now the S has been very predictable if not a little faster with the turn ins.

Anyway, I checked the tire specs with Honda and they're dead on and yes they're spinning the right way too..lol.

So I made an appointment with the dealer for next week to have the alignment checked. If its tires and I have to replace the fronts I'll probably opt to have a differrent tires all around, we'll see.

Thanks again and will post the prognosis.

Mike

[Vezna31]

Have the European spec done for the alignment. It makes the car really handle well.

Front
Camber -1
Toe 0
Caster 6.0 - 6.5

Rear
Camber -2
Toe-In .25

[Java Junky]

As you've already gone n' replaced the rears, why not jus' replace the fronts n' give the Fuzions a chance? I haven't used 'em, but some of the folks on S2K seem pretty taken with 'em n' swear that they'd buy 'em again.
If nothin' else, why'n'cha give the guys at the 'Rack a call n' see what they think. Ain't no charge for tappin' their experience n' knowledge n' if you don't like what you hear you can still let the dealership fit 'er with all new shoes.
But why spring for 4 if you might only need 2?
Be well.
Java

[my87300zxt]

yea i was gonna say the alignment might be off if your thrust angle is out it will track wrong. and mess up the front toe even if they set it to center everytime. but when you get the alignment get the front and rear done its usually a $10 diffrence. at my work its 69.99 for just front and 79.99 for front and rear. make sure they zero that thrust angle. but i have fuzion zri and for the price they are the best. cheap, they wear good, great traction, and they allow a little bit of give. and they ride smooth.

[S2K-Tampa]

Ok, I feel like an idiot.

the tires were inflated to 35lbs, sticker on the door says 32lb.

Not sure how I missed that or why I thought 35 was correct, but reducing pressure to 32 completely solved the problem.

How is it possible that 3 lbs can cause that type of change?

Seriously, that is a relatively insignificant amount, but then again its was nearly 10% off.

Thanks for all the input, especially the eurospec adjustments, I still have my appt next week for alignment.

Mike

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by S2K-Tampa

Ok, I feel like an idiot.

the tires were inflated to 35lbs, sticker on the door says 32lb.

Not sure how I missed that or why I thought 35 was correct, but reducing pressure to 32 completely solved the problem.

How is it possible that 3 lbs can cause that type of change?

Seriously, that is a relatively insignificant amount, but then again its was nearly 10% off.

Thanks for all the input, especially the eurospec adjustments, I still have my appt next week for alignment.

Mike

3 lbs difference should not have caused that much of an adverse effect. When you go on the race track, tire pressures increase significantly more. Iwould come off the track with my street tires measuring anywhere from 37-40 depending on how hot the day was. I found it best not to go over 38 for street tires. Even with Toyo RA1's, they are best at a 35-36 psi when coming off the track. I would be very cautious if your car is that sensitive.

[Java Junky]

Maybe the 35 was jus' applied to the new rears, in which case that jus' made the car's oversteer even more pronounced.
Thanks for the heddzupp Tampa. 'Really glad to hear that you're smilin' again.
Be well.
Java

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

Maybe the 35 was jus' applied to the new rears, in which case that jus' made the car's oversteer even more prounounced.
Thanks for the heddzupp Tampa. 'Really glad to hear that you're smilin' again.
Be well.
Java

You're right. The car would be significantly loose with 3 lbs more in the rear than the front. But again, for street driving, you shouldn't feel it that much unless he is doing some very aggressive street driving. On the track, I start my rear tires 1 lb lower than the fronts to keep the oversteer to a minimum.

[fhinner]

Hhhmmm interesting, what is the US alignment?
Thanks, Franz

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by fhinner

Hhhmmm interesting, what is the US alignment?
Thanks, Franz

Not sure, but it is less aggressive than the Euro spec.

[Java Junky]

Once you settle Stewie into a corner with the recommended street pressures all aroun' you can really feel where Stewie's balance is n' it's oversteer tendency to wanna let the tail out at the first excuse.
Add 3 lbs. to those rear tires n' I think (I haven't tried this so I'm guesstimatin') that excuse is much more easily found n' if the driver's payin' attention, he's gonna be callin' down to Mr. Scott (in respect to all you Trekkies out there) "Mr. Scott: set sphincter for maximum pucker. We're about to go where this man has never been before".
Okay, okay. So the driver's probably gonna notice that the "edge" ain't as out there as it was when the pressures were properly set.
Another 3 lbs. in the rears is probably gonna have the driver concerned that somethin's drastically wrong with the car's handlin'.
Be well.
Java

[bgriffin42]

I'm having a similar problem. My S2000 was in the shop having a new door put on (an F150 backed into it). When it go hit it shoved the rear end around about 18" and the rim on the opposite side got scratched up. I drove it for a week before I could get it in the shop and it handled perfectly. When I got it back Friday with the new door and new rim and an alignment and it's all over the road. I've done 115 on the interstate here and it felt great, now 85 is pretty scary. Everytime I push the clutch in to shift it pulls to one side, and then pulls again when I hit the gas. Anything over 65 or 70 and I have to drive with both hands firmly on the steering wheel. I was worried about the suspension having damage from the hit, but I don't think that's it since I drove it for a week afterwards and had no problems. My first thought was they rotated the tires and the front ones got put on the back, but that's not it either. I'm guessing now after reading this thread that it's either tire pressure or misaligned? Any thoughts?

[Java Junky]

C'mon bg . . what's it take to check the pressures?
Ya check the easiest stuff first n' work towards the more complex stuff only if you godda.
Havin' folks thinkin' toe-in/out, suspension, bad, r' mismatched tires n' alodda other areas when all it is, is incorrect, r' jus' imbalanced tire pressures is a pretty common mistake. Check 'em out n' rule that out as part, r' all of the problem. Then, if the problem persists, you can move up the chain from there.
If the car got pushed sideways 18", it's possible that you might've sustained damage to a rim, alignment r' anything else involved in the damage, but the easiest thing to check n' rule out is the pressure n' it'd be a real duh to spend hours n' dollars on chasin' a problem where it ain't.
Oh, n' as for swappin' the rears n' the fronts: I wouldn't recommend it.
Be well, n' let us know how you make out.
Java

[bgriffin42]

Looks like my bad handling was a combination of different things. Had a full service done on it, including having the tires balanced and the air pressure checked last week. That took care of everything but the pull to the left. I had to take it back in yesterday for new brakes (they didn't have any in stock last week) and asked them to take it for a drive. They told me that it was normal torque pull but it was exaggerated by the fact that whoever owned the car before me put tires on the front that are too big. Apparently people like to put the same size tire all the way around so they can rotate them. Once it's time for new tires I'll get the right size put on.

[S2000dude]

Griff - "torque pull" no way! This is not FWD. Pulling to the left (or right) is not normal. Continue to check it out brother.

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by S2000dude

Griff - "torque pull" no way! This is not FWD. Pulling to the left (or right) is not normal. Continue to check it out brother.

Yep...there is no such thing as torque steer on this car.

[Java Junky]

Your site brethren r' all yellin' snowjob bg. The fella down at the dealership who's handin' you that it was "torque-pull"? You don't wanna be dealin' with that Bozo when you go back. If he's snowed you once . . .
As for the same size tires bein' on the car at all corners: be very aware that Stewie has a tendency towards oversteer with the correct sized shoes on front n' rear. With the same size shoes on all four corners you have a situation that's very "end-swap" conducive.
If you suspect that you might want to be pushin' the car once you get used to it you might wanna consider puttin' the correct sized shoes on it.
Presently, you're lookin' additt like it's a costly non-necessity.
Should the unmentionable happen because of improperly shod rims, all'a sudden it becomes apparent what it really was: money well spent.
However you decide to go, good luck n' keep us posted.
But, like that old knight said . . . choose wisely.
Be well.
Java

[Scott]

Like others have said, the S should never have torque steer.

Check your air pressures yourself to make sure they are all the same. Also, check your A-arms and sway bar end links to make sure everything is hooked up correctly.

Only other thing that comes to mind is a bad strut.

[CAIE02]

I just got an 02 last week, my first Stewie, having the same issue, a "late, snaping" rearend, combined with a faint, quiet, high pitched snap, whenever I leave a stop, or engae 2nd. From the drivers side rear. Now the fronts are near bald, and the rears are like new, thinkn' the previous owner swaped em' when he traded her in, for a good impression... checking tire pressure today...

[desmo4]

The S running on any bald tires will get very exciting to drive. I would recommend a set of Potensa RE-01R's 205 55 16 fronts and 225 50 16 rears the stock AP1 sizes. You will find that the front tire is .2" wider and the rear is .2 narrower than the oem SO2. Start with 34 lbs front and 31 lbs rear cold. Other than race tires you will never find more grip wet or dry.

Jonathan

[Java Junky]

CAI;
'Hope you don't mind a reposted response:
I searched "clicking" n' came up with a bunch'a threads regardin' similar noises. This is the one that I think might be your new buddy.

From ahbongkadah:
"This was a tsb from Honda: you need to loosen the axle nut, grease it, then torque down the axle nut to 225 lbs. This should solve it. If not it could be your inner CV boot.
If your car is still under warranty, go to the dealer and tell them to look up the tsb and they should fix it for you...hope it works out for you."
Now, check out your "good" book from Mother Honda. The wheel/tire sizes r' staggered with the larger ones in the rear. 'Not likely that your rears've been put on the front.
Ain't no way around it pal, you've godda get good rubber on the car (All the tires've godda be good) before you can make any assessment of the handlin' problems.
Good luck n' be well.
Java

[desmo4]

Originally Posted by Java Junky

CAI;
'Hope you don't mind a reposted response:
I searched "clicking" n' came up with a bunch'a threads regardin' similar noises. This is the one that I think might be your new buddy.

From ahbongkadah:
"This was a tsb from Honda: you need to loosen the axle nut, grease it, then torque down the axle nut to 225 lbs. This should solve it. If not it could be your inner CV boot.
If your car is still under warranty, go to the dealer and tell them to look up the tsb and they should fix it for you...hope it works out for you."
Now, check out your "good" book from Mother Honda. The wheel/tire sizes r' staggered with the larger ones in the rear. 'Not likely that your rears've been put on the front.
Ain't no way around it pal, you've godda get good rubber on the car (All the tires've godda be good) before you can make any assessment of the handlin' problems.
Good luck n' be well.
Java

I had a huge amount of play in the drive train. The LSD was dust and was changed which then showed that the drive shafts and propeller shaft were worn. I replaced them and found a small clicking. I replaced the axle nuts and torqued them to 221 ft pounds and all play is gone.

Jonathan

[philiam]

Boy, this site is a real education! There's a lot to learn by reading these threads.

[CAIE02]

Thanks for all the info, dont wont to hi jack this thread though... but i did swap the tires, now the 205/45, low tread are in the rear and the 205/40 like new are in the front, this helped a little, but I see now that I just need to get the correct tires all the way around. Don't know if the previous owner really knew their stuff. This could get "2jz no s#!%" scary. Thanx again...

[desmo4]

To all, try a set of RE-01R's They cost less then S02's and the performance is 1000 times better in driving rain or dry. If they could deal with freezing temperatures I would call them magic.

Jonathan